{Ep.138} The Luke Clinic | Guest: Penny Armbruster

In this powerful episode, Kevin interviews Penny Armbruster, Executive Director of The Luke Clinic, a vital organization offering free medical care and wrap-around services for pregnant and postpartum mothers and their infants. Penny discusses the clinic's mission to support vulnerable families, with a special focus on maternal and infant health. The conversation also delves into the church's role in protecting life, the challenges faced by poor immigrant mothers, and the alarming rise in deaths among Black mothers. Tune in for an insightful discussion on how The Luke Clinic is making a difference and the urgent need for greater support for mothers in need.

To learn more about the Luke Clinic, visit:
www.thelukeclinic.org

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Transcript

Kevin Wilson (00:01.319)
Welcome back to the Thinking Out Loud podcast. My name is Kevin Wilson and I am excited to be here for another week of the show. And I know that if you have listened to this show in the past few weeks, we have talked about a lot of different things and we've had a fascinating guest on last time that we were together and this week is no different. One of the things that I, I

really love to highlight are people who are doing just amazing things in the body of Christ, right? We are called to be the hands and the feet of Jesus. We are called to go out outside of the four walls of the church and to bring Christ to those who are hurting, those who are, that feel like they have no hope.

And, the person that we're going to talk to today is a person who is a part of the body who is doing just that. And she would say, not by herself. There is a group of people who are doing this with her, but you know, God always uses somebody or a group of people that says yes. And then other people that are a part of the body of Christ are attracted to that. And I might.

My desire today is, is you listen to this, the guests that we have today, that, that you become attracted to what God is doing and that you maybe become a partner, maybe you become, and you may not even live in Michigan, but you have a heart for the unborn. You have a heart for the sanctity of life. You realize how important life is. Well,

You have an opportunity to partner with an amazing organization today. And today with us, we have Penny Armbruster. She is the executive director of the Luke Clinic. She helped found this nonprofit organization about eight years ago. And the Luke Clinic is a compassionate haven for pregnant and postpartum mothers.

Kevin Wilson (02:19.843)
and their infants in the Detroit area. They are dedicated to providing free medical services to vulnerable families. offer comprehensive care with a focus on maternal and infant health, creating a safe space where patients feel heard and supported. You can learn more about them at the Luke clinic dot org. That's the Luke clinic dot org and Penny.

Thanks for being on the Thinking Out Loud podcast.

Penny Armbruster (02:52.98)
It's a pleasure. I'm really excited to have this conversation with you.

Kevin Wilson (02:56.817)
Yeah, absolutely. So I want to start off by just talking to you about your own personal story. You know, I want the audience to get to know Penny. Who are you? How did you get started? Did you grow up in a Christian home? Did you? How did this all come to be? So tell us a little bit about Penny.

Penny Armbruster (03:20.472)
So I was born and raised in England and my family was not Christian and I don't remember growing up with anything in our home that was Christian. But in the UK at that time, it was very much a part of the school system. I would say as a religion class. And so you had a lot of head knowledge about religion, but I wouldn't say I had any heart understanding or understanding of the relationship that Jesus

atoning death had for me. But I knew the stories and I knew that there were people who believed in God and there were people who went to church. But in the absence of that in my home, the religion in my home was that it's all down to you. You need to work hard and you need to make something of your life. And I really took that on board and became as a very young child, very deliberate and motivated in achieving and

Kevin Wilson (03:51.261)
Hmm

Penny Armbruster (04:19.743)
receiving the sort of pats on the back that you get when you do well in school and you excel and you go over and above. And so very oriented on works and performance, which in all honesty, was exhausting. And so at the age of 24, I had graduated from college and gone to live in Germany to learn another language. I spoke French and I wanted to learn German and

Kevin Wilson (04:35.515)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (04:47.968)
It was while I was there that there was a church called the American Protestant Church that reached out to English speaking people in Germany. So whether they were diplomats, students, whoever they might be, they had all sorts of social events. And at the end of these social events, there was always an invite to join Bible study or prayer group. And I always was like, yeah, no thanks. know what you're about and not really interested.

Kevin Wilson (05:14.067)
Mm.

Penny Armbruster (05:14.36)
But I really ended up, all my friends were Christian and all my friends were in church. And one weekend we were camping and we were coming back late on a Sunday morning trying to get to church. And they said, we're really running late and we'll never be able to drop Penny off and hit church on time. And I said, don't drop me off, take me to church. It's not like I'm gonna be struck by lightning in the pew.

Kevin Wilson (05:18.771)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (05:35.858)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (05:37.164)
And I was sat in a pew and the pastor was preaching a sermon on trust. And he had a very vivid illustration of fire jumpers in one of the plain states and how they were being helicoptered in and they were doing their work when all of a sudden the wind changed. And with the wind change, this enormous hot, hot, hot wall of fire came towards them. And the senior firefighter said, if we try to outrun this fire, we'll never do it, we'll die. If you trust me, we will.

set light to a new brush fire and we will jump into it right before the big fire goes over the top. And they had flame retardant suits but not protective suits. So they knew even if they jumped in this cooler fire, they would still get burned but they would survive. And only two firefighters trusted him and the others tried to outrun the fire. And those who outrun the fire perished and those who trusted him and jumped into the cooler fire prevailed. And his method was, his sermon was

Kevin Wilson (06:21.981)
Mmm.

Penny Armbruster (06:35.554)
basically, sometimes you need to make a leap of faith. And I found it very compelling, but it was really just a story in a sermon. And then I heard the audible voice of God telling me that he was real and that he was for me. And I remember just being frozen for the rest of the service and in shock. And my family are basically practicing atheists. So it was such a leap to think that I'd heard God's voice that I went up to the front and spoke to the pastor.

Kevin Wilson (06:39.271)
Hmm

Penny Armbruster (07:05.49)
And we both agreed that the best thing for me to do was to go on a journey of discovery. And he was more than certain that when I spent time in the Word that God would become alive to me through the power of the Holy Spirit. And so I joined every prayer group, every Bible study. And about three weeks later, my now husband walked into Bible study and really began mentoring me in Bible study. And I just grew in faith from that point.

Kevin Wilson (07:11.271)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (07:33.398)
And I think what's kind of interesting in that story is again, in the absence of biblical truth and the absence of my parents directing me, I had really embraced feminism, really embraced this sort of pro-choice abortion movement. I was elected as women's officer of my university campus and I was extremely hostile to anyone who was pro-choice.

Kevin Wilson (07:46.523)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (07:56.659)
Mmm.

Penny Armbruster (07:58.988)
You know, I look back on it now and I was just so misguided, but I was just so convicted that what I was doing was right. And it's just very, very interesting that years later, God gave me the opportunity to redeem that life by allowing me to be part of starting a pro-life Christian clinic. And I was all about going back to nursing school when my last daughter graduated high school. And at that point we opened the clinic and God showed me, don't need to be a nurse.

to do what I'm calling you to do. And really the last eight years have been really the most profound, beautiful, amazing time of my life outside of being a wife and a mother to be able to live out. Really every sermon that I hear, every scripture that I read somehow just seems to be so applicable to what I'm going through, what I'm experiencing and who I'm ministering to that week.

Kevin Wilson (08:31.142)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (08:54.929)
Hmm. That's yeah, that's. Mm hmm. Wow. That's that's amazing. So you were so and you're a lot like a lot of people right now who may be in college who are listening. And, know, the world is a lot different. Obviously now, I mean, we it is very, very against most things that are right or biblical.

Penny Armbruster (08:56.088)
So a big redemption.

Kevin Wilson (09:23.731)
We've went down. mean, thank goodness Roe v. Wade. I mean, that was a historic that just happened. And so we we've we've had some victories, but, know, we still have an uphill battle, right? Because, you know, the Bible says very clearly we don't wrestle against flesh and blood. Right. It's not the people. It's it's the principalities, its powers. It's this this this.

you know, goal of the enemy really to fool people into thinking that life is not important and life doesn't matter. And so how did you so you said you were, just kind of just very, very pro choice. Was there a was what like what jumped off the page at you? Was it a scripture? Was it just learning about God just in general? Like.

What caused you and was and was this a like an automatic flip or was this a gradual thing?

Penny Armbruster (10:29.454)
I would say that the journey of reading scripture is a gradual journey where you begin to understand that God is the author perfecter of life and that every life has value. And intrinsically, I think I accepted that on my spiritual journey. But before I became, before I got married, I was told we couldn't have children and we ended up getting pregnant about two and a half years into our marriage, which was mind blowing.

Kevin Wilson (10:34.898)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (10:53.063)
Hmm.

Penny Armbruster (10:59.31)
And at 12 weeks, they were really not sure I would be able to carry to term. So I had a lot of ultrasounds. And at 12 weeks, which as you know, is like a standard cutoff for a lot of people who say, well, abortion in the first trimester is good. And after that, maybe not. And I did an ultrasound and my son was sucking his thumb and doing some assaults in utero with four, know, two arms, two feet. And I just remember being convicted to my

Kevin Wilson (11:20.957)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (11:28.85)
that I used to tell these girls, you know, up till 12 weeks, it's just a bunch of cells. And I thought if the feminist movement is predicated on choice, why would you lie?

Kevin Wilson (11:35.464)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (11:46.109)
Mm, mm.

Penny Armbruster (11:47.116)
And it really just made me then question everything and go back and say, everything that I read, every book that I had, every piece of research that I did that was supposedly accurate medical information to share with women was a lie.

Kevin Wilson (12:02.204)
Hmm

Penny Armbruster (12:03.316)
And everything that God has said in his word, he is showing me his truth. It was a stark moment. I just remember being really stunned for the entire day that what I had seen with my own eyes bore no resemblance to anything I'd ever been told and was telling other women.

Kevin Wilson (12:23.672)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

Penny Armbruster (12:25.29)
And so it just became clearer and clearer that his word doesn't contradict itself. That I was on a journey. I can remember saying to my husband one day as we were driving, okay, okay, this whole scripture thing, it's good. But like this Jonah thing, like clearly like that's not true, right? That's like a story. And I just remember him saying, okay, did we pray this morning for my sister? We were living in Germany.

Kevin Wilson (12:44.819)
Yeah.

Penny Armbruster (12:54.872)
Did we pray for my sister who was in Michigan in Manistee in the hospital, desperately ill? And did we believe that we had a God that could reach out and touch her and heal her in Michigan? If we believe that about God, do you believe he's capable of doing that to Jonah? And I was like, well, yeah, I can't expect him to be this on the one hand and not this on the other. And so, you know, I think it was a process of

Kevin Wilson (13:00.115)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (13:07.283)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (13:14.899)
Hmm.

Penny Armbruster (13:23.424)
choosing to believe, and then, you know, over time now at my age, and especially in the last eight years, I have seen so many miracles, so many things that can't be explained, that even to me, medical truth is up for question, because what we believe we know to be true medically, God can do so much more than we can even begin to imagine.

Kevin Wilson (13:32.861)
Hmm.

Penny Armbruster (13:48.17)
And so this idea of truth is scripture is truth, God is truth, but our understanding is very much influenced by our circumstances and the blinkered life that we have, that we see. So I think really as I've grown in understanding, I've become a lot more open to the possibility of asking God what is true for him.

Kevin Wilson (14:02.257)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (14:12.529)
Hmm. Hmm. That's yeah. No, that's that's that's awesome. Did anybody during that time that you were not a Christian, did you did anybody ever like approach you like with like tracks or or a missionary or anybody talk to you about it? Because you said your friends like went to church, but did they were they trying to get you to? To.

Penny Armbruster (14:40.394)
It's unbelievable to me that in the UK, my mother had two dear friends who, I became a Christian, told me, we've been praying for you since you were little. And never once did they try to lead me to Christ. Never once did they share a biblical truth with me. I think in England, there's the belief that if you're Christian, you're maybe academically, intellectually, like not operating on all cylinders, that you're less.

Kevin Wilson (14:51.56)
Mm.

Penny Armbruster (15:09.932)
And so for Christians, a lot of them don't have the confidence to share their faith. And it's also not evangelical in nature in the UK. Like this idea of evangelizing and being a missionary and sharing isn't currently a thing. The church is really struggling, which is so weird because if historically we look at the so many amazing missionaries that we all know and love and read about that came out of the UK, Gladys Aylward, George Mueller, I so many of them.

Kevin Wilson (15:35.581)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (15:37.678)
My family referred to us as American Christians as happy, clappy Christians. But I say, because we're happy and clappy, we've got good news that we want to share. Like, we're excited. If I would say to you, my gosh, I just got this amazing dress on sale at Nordstrom Rack, and I want to tell you that because it's a cool deal, that's the same like cool deal that I have in Jesus, except it eclipses any kind of dress deal. And so I think...

Kevin Wilson (15:43.059)
you

Kevin Wilson (15:54.61)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (16:02.939)
Right.

Penny Armbruster (16:05.422)
Noticing more from my parents now who've been watching us this whole time, they see it as an outflow of joy. Like my son has been a missionary, we've worked in mission our whole lives. I think my parents just see that as an outflowing of the joy of faith, which I do too. I can't really imagine keeping it to yourself, but certainly growing up, I knew every story in the Bible, but I had no idea that Jesus cared enough for me.

Kevin Wilson (16:13.234)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (16:25.35)
Right.

Penny Armbruster (16:33.624)
that if I was the only one, he would have given his life for me. That I had to learn all of that. Nobody ever explained Jesus' atoning death ever in a personal way.

Kevin Wilson (16:33.651)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (16:39.154)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (16:44.561)
Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. You know, it's it's I mean, I say wow. But if we think about it and you think about the average person, you know, I think a lot of people are they have so much fear like and I don't know why to share Christ. You know, it's like, well, people are to think I'm silly or people, know, like it's it's you know, the Bible, we don't need to help God. Right.

That that's the thing that I think we have to understand. Like the Bible, you know, the scripture, all of that, it speaks for itself. Right. And so, you know, I think that sometimes, you know, the Bible talks about, know, we plant the seed and or, know, we plant the seed, one waters and God gives the increase. Right. We don't have to, you know, a person doesn't have to go from, you know, you speak to them, you talk to them to being saved in the next 15 minutes now.

Could that happen? Absolutely. But it's a lot of times it doesn't happen that way. But I think this, you know, just hearing you say that, somebody might say, wow, that seems crazy. But we have to ask ourselves, when was the last time that we shared Christ with someone? You know, our coworkers or a friend, our neighbors, right? Like it, you know, it just, there's people around us and these people need to know.

the gospel and I mean I could go on a tangent about that, I'm not.

Penny Armbruster (18:11.97)
But it also does, you know, it does highlight the power of prayer that my two aunts never gave up praying for me. And I was 27 when I became a Christian and I heard God's audible voice in the pew. That is not your average way of coming to Jesus. I used to live in Pittsburgh and there was a clock outside of Kaufman's department store. And it was a big place where you'd say meet under the clock.

Kevin Wilson (18:18.141)
Mm. Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (18:29.905)
Yes.

Penny Armbruster (18:39.488)
And there was this guy wearing a sandwich board and it said, repent or die. And I always remember looking at that guy thinking that is not a winsome message. And I don't know who you're winning with that message until I met the most wonderful person who said, yeah, he totally saved my life. And it's like, God knows what we need. Like he will put in our path. We have the privilege of being used, but if we don't.

Kevin Wilson (18:56.412)
Mmm.

Yes.

Kevin Wilson (19:04.442)
Amen.

Penny Armbruster (19:05.356)
He's going to find somebody else and he knows what each person needs to draw them to him.

Kevin Wilson (19:09.991)
Yes, so, so true. So tell me a little bit about how did you get like here? So eight years ago, what led up to you starting with a group of people? This the Lute Clinic, like how did that come to be?

Penny Armbruster (19:31.426)
So we're part of the Lutheran Church and the Lutheran Church was not my church of choice. It was my husband's family's church for generations. And it was a little different to what I was used to in Germany. was a little less missional in my mind. And I was always so excited to share what was happening inside the church. And one day,

Kevin Wilson (19:35.719)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (19:44.026)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (19:57.624)
We had a new pastor come and he was called an interim and he came really just to hold over until the next pastor came. And he was extremely entrepreneurial and missional. And he just wanted to keep trying new things and new ways to share the message of Jesus with our local community. And it was extremely winsome. And we used to go out to breakfast with him and his wife and just talk about how God might use us and things we could do.

Kevin Wilson (20:01.895)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (20:25.894)
And there was a training offered in Michigan for Lutheran church workers who were interested in any kind of mission out of Texas called the Five Two Training. And the Five Two Training is based on this theory that when Jesus fed the 5,000 with the five loaves and two fish, those five loaves and two fish, those resources did not belong to the church. They belonged to a little boy in the crowd with his lunch.

Kevin Wilson (20:36.147)
Hmm.

Penny Armbruster (20:53.76)
And sometimes in the church, we get very caught up with that we have to come with an entire solution to do mission. And the concept of the training we did is God's gonna provide the resources. You've just got to be looking out there in the community. Who in the community can you partner with? Can you reach out to? And it's a very liberating way of doing mission.

Kevin Wilson (21:00.68)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (21:05.553)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (21:18.378)
And so we started looking at what we could do. And he was a pharmacist, a part-time pharmacist, and his wife was an OB nurse. And they happened to notice that Detroit had the highest infant mortality rate in the country. And we just had a moment of, how can that be? We've got Henry Ford and Beaumont and these amazing hospital systems that people travel from all over the world for. How can people in the city

Kevin Wilson (21:33.043)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (21:44.529)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (21:46.402)
be dying at higher rates than anywhere else. So we decided to go visit all the vice presidents of community health from the big health systems. And we kept hearing this word non-compliant, that these patients are non-compliant, which means they're not participating in their own health care. They might no show. They're a bit of a liability. And so the hospital system kind of says, OK, we're done. So we heard this enough that we're like, let's stop interviewing vice presidents and start talking to some women.

It took about two minutes talking to women to realize that if you're in Southwest Detroit or the East side of Detroit, you can see Henry Ford. You can't get to it because there's no public transportation or you don't have a car or a reliable car. So you can't physically get there. If you did get there, there's a $5 parking fee, which most of our clients wouldn't have spare $5 for parking.

Kevin Wilson (22:26.619)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (22:41.6)
If you made it through the parking and got into the building and you wanted to go and get an ultrasound if you were pregnant or a blood draw, you wouldn't be allowed in because you have your children with you and you can't get seen if you have children with you. And our patients typically don't have childcare. So we just began to see how quickly it was disenfranchising to so many people, nevermind the issue of having or not having insurance. So we thought, you know what we'll do? We'll put a clinic.

Kevin Wilson (23:07.463)
Mmm.

Penny Armbruster (23:11.586)
and we'll make it free and we'll make it accessible. And then we learned that there was a lack of trust between provider and the community. And I had a patient explain to me one time, Ms. Penny, you know our men don't trust the police. Well, our women, don't trust healthcare workers. And I was completely blown away. But after eight years of listening, and I say listening because God has a sense of humor to send a white woman from England.

into the city of Detroit. I'm not there to tell these women how to live and what choices to make. I'm there to listen and empower them to make their own choices. And so I've listened and I've seen again and again and again how these women come back from delivering and they did not get offered pain medication in pregnancy. And there's this pervasive idea that black women don't feel pain like white women.

Kevin Wilson (23:50.237)
Yeah.

Kevin Wilson (24:04.668)
Mmm.

Penny Armbruster (24:04.77)
which I have to say from the outside, is this 1940 in Alabama or Mississippi? Like, what is this? Mind blowing. And it's story after story after story. So I no longer doubt it because I see it. So I realized that when they come to us, we are going to have to prove that we're trustworthy, that we're respectful, that they have dignity. And we have to work very, very hard to build a trusting relationship to care for them. And so that's

Kevin Wilson (24:10.834)
Right. Right.

Kevin Wilson (24:32.156)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (24:33.792)
That's how we started the clinic, but really from any missionary, when you go or you start, you have all these expectations and ideas and God very quickly shows you, there's a lot more to this than you're expecting. So we thought we were doing nine months of prenatal care and our first patient arrived with like, she was eight and a half months pregnant. And we were like, wow, no prenatal care, eight and a half months pregnant.

Kevin Wilson (24:47.173)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (24:56.252)
Wow.

Penny Armbruster (25:01.142)
And we thought we'd have this idea that we would reward our moms with a party and a baby shower if they kept all their appointments. And we were like, well, I guess your next appointment's a baby shower. So we had this extremely over-decorated room. And I remember our patient, she's given me permission to show her name. Her name was Queen. And as Queen came through the room, I saw that she had her best dress on. But as she got closer, I saw she had two black eyes.

a split lip, and incredibly raw red strangulation marks. And she whispered to me, because her vocal cords were so swollen, I just checked out of the hospital. My boyfriend tried to kill me last night. But I told them at the hospital, I've never had a party. And I wasn't going to miss this party. And I tell Queen's story because for me, it was the watershed moment of

Kevin Wilson (25:31.571)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (25:35.763)
Hmm.

Penny Armbruster (25:58.072)
This is not about medical care. This is about as a woman, if you wake up in the morning and you don't feel safe, you don't know what you're gonna feed your children, you don't know where you're gonna sleep tonight, your prenatal care means nothing. And so Queen taught me a lesson. And so from that moment on, we have tried to add in as many wraparound services as we can figure out that patients need. So you can't get to us free transportation.

Kevin Wilson (26:00.659)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (26:13.768)
Hmm.

Penny Armbruster (26:27.649)
You don't have Medicaid, we're going to have a navigator to sign you up. You don't qualify for Medicaid through the navigator, we're going to tell you not-for-profit hospitals that will deliver at a reduced rate or for free. You have special needs children, which are so dominating your life that you don't have time for anything other than taking care of this child. We're going to hook you up with Autism Alliance and a navigator to help you get resources and support. You need childhood immunizations and you can't get to the free clinic at Children's Hospital.

Detroit Department of Health, we brought them into the clinic to give immunizations. We try to make it a one-stop shop where you can see the doctor, get a blood draw, do an ultrasound, get some social work assistance, get some love support. You haven't eaten? Here's a healthy snack that someone's made for you to eat the second you arrive. And there's a meal for your whole family you can order and take to go. we started a medical clinic.

but we realized to be able to take care of women and empower women and share faith with these women, we needed to address the social determinants of health. And I participated, I worked in this for four years and then I was asked to become executive director. And I remember feeling very inadequate. And I really just asked God, just lead me in scripture to something that's gonna encourage me.

Kevin Wilson (27:36.818)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (27:47.067)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (27:55.084)
And the first place he took me in the Old Testament was the story of Hagar, who really is the first sex traffic woman that we read about in scripture, that Abraham and Sarah couldn't get pregnant. Sarah said, have sex with my handmaid Bilher and we'll take her child, with Hagar, we'll take her child Ishmael. But you know how that goes. It was not a comfortable situation. Sarah was very jealous of Hagar. Hagar's life was a misery and she tries to run away.

and she's running away into the desert with nothing but her baby, desperate. And an angel comes and speaks to her and says, Hagar El-Roy, the God who sees, sees you.

Kevin Wilson (28:30.141)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (28:37.479)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (28:38.508)
And what stood out to me in that story was the name for God, Elroy in Hebrew, the God who sees that our clients are invisible. They're not taking government benefits. They're not registered for Medicaid. Most of them that they're homeless without an address and they're often couch serving from place to place. But God sees and God cares about them and their unborn children. And that for many of them,

Kevin Wilson (28:47.258)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (29:06.552)
Having an abortion is not because they want to, it's because they feel they have no choice. So if we can address empowering them to keep their children, we're offering a choice. And then the second story was in the New Testament where Jesus meets the woman at the well who had multiple husbands and is at the well in the middle of the day. And he knows why she's there. And he...

Kevin Wilson (29:12.261)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (29:20.157)
Mm.

Penny Armbruster (29:32.61)
He doesn't immediately berate her or tell her what she's done wrong. He sees her, he knows what she's done wrong. But he builds trust, he builds relationship and ultimately he tells her to go sin no more. But it was that relationship build and that lack of judgment that made me realize our clinic needs to be...

founded on this concept that everyone's welcome, everyone's loved, there's no judgment, especially if you don't know Jesus, how can you be held to a standard that we have as Christians from scripture? That our job is to build that relationship and introduce people through compassionate care by being Jesus's hands and feet to the love of Jesus. And then if we get to build on that and we get to reach them to the point where they want to be baptized, they want to

Kevin Wilson (30:07.24)
Hmm.

Penny Armbruster (30:24.726)
make a face statement, they want to get married, then we can move into what God's plan is for them. But we just can't come to that at the beginning. You just can't hit a woman who's never been taken on a date, never been protected, never been cared for, never been cherished, doesn't have a present dad and doesn't have a boyfriend who's committed to her. You can't talk to her about abstinence because she doesn't have any kind of

Kevin Wilson (30:31.14)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (30:52.622)
control over her life. She's not making the decision to get pregnant because right now in Detroit, if you're a young man, to be really cool, you need 10 children.

Kevin Wilson (30:54.866)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (31:04.408)
my goodness.

Penny Armbruster (31:05.474)
doesn't have to be all by the same baby mama, but 10 is the magic number right now. So that means there's a lot of girls who are being sexually coerced into pregnancy without any kind of commitment. And that is grinding her down and grinding her down and grinding her down. And that is a woman who comes to us desperate for love, for care, for attention.

And we can offer that and we can offer medical care and we offer physical support. We offer material support so that she can go through her pregnant growing in this understanding that the Luke Clinic is a place where she can be loved. And then if we are blessed to be given the opportunity, we can talk about the plan that God has for her life. And then maybe we can talk about making some changes and having a vision and a hope, but it's really a process.

Kevin Wilson (32:04.399)
Penny. That's really.

Penny Armbruster (32:05.622)
I know.

Kevin Wilson (32:11.037)
There's so many words going through my head right now, but it's it's deep. It's it's there's there's so much there. How did and I think a lot of times and I mean, I we as a as as people who are not in that life or who understand that kind of thing or have ever lived in poverty or anything like that, it is so easy.

even as Christians to judge people. Right. You know, like we just and I'm not saying that, you know, we just shouldn't we shouldn't do that. And I think that's something that I think as Christians, we just because even just hear what you said, some of that stuff, Penny, I didn't even know myself. Like you're literally blowing my mind. going, huh, 10 children. That's the going thing. Like what?

Penny Armbruster (32:43.65)
all the time.

Penny Armbruster (33:06.252)
Bye bye, team.

That's a common response is that we make assumptions. I hear all the time, you're serving women who are sleeping around and having lots of baby daddies and living off the government. And I think you couldn't be further from the truth. And then I often just begin to tell stories of the different clients that we have. So for example, we take care of, we call them under-documented. Some people will call them illegal. We take care of people who are legally here seeking asylum.

Kevin Wilson (33:22.483)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (33:38.055)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (33:39.392)
or seeking some kind of immigration path to citizenship. And all of these people are finding themselves in a similar position, which is they don't have access to healthcare. So for example, if you are here under asylum or legally pursuing any kind of immigration, that means that your attorney is telling you it will be held against you if you take any government benefits.

Kevin Wilson (34:07.784)
Hmm.

Penny Armbruster (34:09.172)
In theory, we hear a lot about immigrants coming in and taking benefits and take, take, take. But we also have an assumption in this country that every woman deserves to deliver safely in a hospital and receive medical care. So to me, if you're going to have a law that says it will be held against you, it should exclude basics like delivering in a hospital.

Kevin Wilson (34:17.053)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (34:28.199)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (34:38.092)
because they come and they say, can't deliver in a hospital, we can't pay for medical care, we can't get government benefits, it'll go against our immigration application. And to me, that's terrifying. So I am able to tell them, first of all, we don't charge for a thing, we will take care of your entire pregnancy. And then there are nonprofit hospitals and I've got to really just say proudly, the University of Michigan will take every single under-documented immigrant and deliver them for free because they have a commitment to do so.

Kevin Wilson (34:48.019)
That's crazy.

Kevin Wilson (35:00.581)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (35:06.899)
That's awesome.

Penny Armbruster (35:07.096)
But there are things like that that we don't realize. We just assume everyone can deliver in a hospital. Or for whatever reason, you don't have a stable address. You were trafficked when you were a little girl, or you just have a mother who struggled with drug addiction, didn't keep your birth certificate, and you have no ID. How do you go about getting ID? Because if you don't have ID, you can't get insurance. And so there are a million things that just make it possible that people fall through this safety net.

Kevin Wilson (35:24.497)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (35:29.683)
Hmm.

Penny Armbruster (35:36.926)
and find themselves without access to medical care. We had an immigrant the other day. She was originally from Bangladesh. And she was very relieved to be seeing us. And we were using a translator to care for her and her husband. And she came with her two-year-old. But without realizing it, there's a lot of decisions that you make when you're pregnant. Where do you want to deliver? How do you want to deliver?

Kevin Wilson (35:45.284)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (36:00.38)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (36:02.966)
What test do you want? What test do you not want? And this lady really couldn't make any decision. Like when we'd say over to you, what do you want? There would just be nothing. And we weren't getting anywhere with our translator and we were blessed to have another lady from Bangladesh. And again, let's talk about all of our stereotypes. This was a lady who had a lot of money. They had an import export business in Bangladesh and she was over here to get an American passport and deliver a baby in America.

Kevin Wilson (36:31.825)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (36:32.086)
That happens too. Do I judge the mother? I do not. Do I judge the child? I do not. Still deserves a safe delivery. But either way, this woman was an absolute darling. And I said to her, I've got another patient from Bangladesh. Now one is extremely rich and one was very much struggling. I said, can you talk to her and find out why she's, what's going on? Well, they spent about two hours together and it turned out that they had been working in Brazil.

Kevin Wilson (36:40.679)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (37:00.962)
when things had gotten pretty violent where they lived and they have had to flee. And they had come by foot from Brazil.

Kevin Wilson (37:10.29)
Mmm.

Penny Armbruster (37:11.896)
You just got to think about that. We think about Mary on a donkey going to Bethlehem. This woman was pregnant and somehow they made it from Brazil all the way to the border. And then the border agents, when they processed them for asylum, moved them up to Detroit. She was so traumatized, she couldn't make a decision. She was so relieved to be safe that it was like,

Kevin Wilson (37:16.997)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (37:30.204)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (37:34.929)
Wow.

Penny Armbruster (37:39.816)
And we were able to realize, OK, this is a special case. We're going to deliver her at University of Michigan because it's a hotel right on site. We're going to get her a hotel. We're going to get child care for the little two-year-old because she can't be in the room. And we're just going to surround them with support. And it was almost like watching them defrost over time, like from the trauma that they've been through. And I think

You know, there are so many times where as Christians we have political positions that we make judgments on about immigrants or about people who come here to deliver babies. But I'm telling you, when you look another woman in the eye and you see her humanity and that she just, she is afraid and she just wants to deliver her baby safely, everyone deserves that. I I had a 40, 47 year old woman who'd come over from Saudi Arabia.

Kevin Wilson (38:18.065)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (38:24.979)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (38:30.048)
I think she was this man's first wife and she had never gotten pregnant. And finally she gets pregnant in her forties and he flies her over to get a birth certificate and deliver a baby in the United States. And she had a lot of complications and she should never have flown and she should never have been away from home at this point. But she didn't even matter. They just wanted this baby and this birth certificate.

Kevin Wilson (38:34.428)
Mm.

Kevin Wilson (38:44.211)
Hmm.

Penny Armbruster (38:55.232)
I don't judge the babies and I don't judge the moms. We love, we witness. And the thing that I hear all the time is the patients use one phrase all the time, this has become my family. And then the other thing I hear all the time, because we serve a lot of Muslim families, is you Christians really live out what you believe in the word. And I just think that's a powerful witness.

Kevin Wilson (38:58.427)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (39:08.979)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (39:18.638)
Mmm. Mmm.

Mmm.

Penny Armbruster (39:23.042)
The other thing that we're blessed to do is by partnering with the University of Michigan, over time, they've looked at what we were doing and looked at how many of their staff are volunteering with us. And the Department of Family Medicine made a commitment, we're going to start paying doctors to come and serve a clinic. We're going to send our Mesical residents so that they can intern with you and get a sense of what community medicine can be like. And you have to stop for a moment and say,

Kevin Wilson (39:39.165)
Hmm.

Penny Armbruster (39:52.418)
No way is the University of Michigan anything close to a Christian ethos in the way they practice medicine. And they are paying doctors to come to a pro-life Christian clinic. So now in clinic, we have pro-life doctors, pro-choice doctors and doctors who are not Christian, who get to work with us and they come in concerned, but by the time they leave, they're like, you're respectful, you're not coercive, you're empowering, you're not judgmental. Like, I can do this.

Kevin Wilson (39:58.994)
Great.

Kevin Wilson (40:21.969)
Hmm.

Penny Armbruster (40:22.146)
So now we get to witness to a bunch of doctors that we never expected to be able to witness to. I mean, I just love to see that we took what we thought was an idea and God turned it upside down and said, we're gonna do so much more than that. And we're gonna care for so many more women that you had no clue were disenfranchised. Medicaid, we thought if you had Medicaid, we wouldn't take you because you were good until a patient called me and said, 14 doctors had refused to take her.

Kevin Wilson (40:35.75)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (40:40.819)
Mm.

Penny Armbruster (40:50.284)
because she was high risk medically and high risk socially. And it wasn't going to be worth return on investment. So we take people with Medicaid who no one else will take. We'll take people who've got health through the marketplace who can't afford their $3,000 deductible. We don't ask, we serve.

Kevin Wilson (40:50.759)
My

Kevin Wilson (40:54.685)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (41:06.673)
Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm.

Penny Armbruster (41:09.184)
And so, yeah, I think it's not just Christians. I think we all have assumptions, but I'm at a point now where I just believe in the humanity of another person. And I know what it was like to be in labor and to be afraid and think, can I get through this? And I was going into a hospital with a midwife, not at home on my own. Like everyone deserves to deliver safely.

Kevin Wilson (41:24.773)
Mm-hmm. Mm. Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (41:33.383)
Yeah, yeah. Man, you know, it's as you're talking, I'm thinking about, know, we I've been going through a series on the podcast through the Beatitudes, and I'm just thinking of all of those Beatitudes that are on display in the Lou Clinic. Like it's just and sometimes we wonder how the Bible comes to life, what that practically looks like.

And this is what it practically looks like. this is, you know, because sometimes people say it home and they go, I really want to be a part of something or I really feel like, but they're like, I'm not sure what to do or, or, you know, what that looks like or how can I even exercise that? Right. Because some of us need to exercise the muscle of not being judgmental. Right. You know,

Penny Armbruster (42:16.174)
percent.

Penny Armbruster (42:27.628)
Yes, I've invited people that I have heard be very judgmental who told me that they thought my patients should be sterilized. And I say, come down to clinic and please meet some of these ladies. Or I had people who were very averse to immigrants of any kind. Come down to clinic, like come and see, come and have your mind changed. Non-Christians can work with us. People who aren't sure if they're really pro-life.

Kevin Wilson (42:35.543)
my-

Kevin Wilson (42:39.409)
Mmm

Kevin Wilson (42:44.691)
Mmm.

Penny Armbruster (42:54.83)
There's a lot of people today, they go to college and they're really not sure. They kind of know it says it in scripture, but they look at what it means to be pro-life and it doesn't always look loving and kind. And it doesn't always seem to be empowering. If you're not sure you're pro-life, come and see how we live it out. There's nothing coercive, guilt inducing, difficult about loving people where they're at. I think that whether you're medical,

Kevin Wilson (43:10.643)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (43:17.427)
Hmm.

Penny Armbruster (43:20.0)
whether you're a retired medical person, whether you've got administrative gifts, childcare gifts, you just love welcoming people and you stand on the door and welcome people. I've never met somebody who told me they had a gift that we couldn't use in the Luke Clinic because I think when you come with a skill that we've never had before, God's already got a plan for it. And we take people for tours, we take people to come and observe. I think it's just another way to see

Kevin Wilson (43:39.89)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (43:47.918)
A church of 75 people started the Lute Clinic eight years ago and we're currently a half million dollar ministry, 100 % supported by donations from small people who give on average $50 a month.

Kevin Wilson (43:53.723)
Wow.

Kevin Wilson (44:05.774)
Wow. Wow, wow, wow, wow.

That's proof of God's takes. Little in makes much. Like, truly.

Penny Armbruster (44:15.118)
100%. It's his ministry, it's his vision, and he will make it happen in his own way.

Kevin Wilson (44:22.671)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Tell us how are you so so there are people who are probably listening who have heard of Planned Parenthood. So when they think about, you know, care for the mother or care for the you know, they you know, they have been told, plan Planned Parenthood is the place to go. Don't go to those those Christian places. They're going to trap you and they're going to, you know, all these kind of things. Right.

How are you? How are you different than Planned Parenthood? There's obvious things, but like, how are you different and how if somebody is afraid and they're like, you know what? I the only thing I really know is Planned Parenthood, because that's what I hear. And that's what the government tells me. I should go there. I hear my politicians, my local politicians and the national ones telling me that's the place that's really going to give me my, you know, really care for me.

what can they expect? And I know you've talked some about this, so I, I, I not necessarily wanting to rehash that, but what's the difference? Like if I'm a scared teenage mom right now.

Penny Armbruster (45:39.022)
100%. So I think you have to look of what motivates each of us to do what we do. Planned Parenthood is a wildly successful business that 100 % makes money on abortion. So there's a big motivation for abortion. I don't think they're all honest. I think there are practitioners, I know practitioners who are doing amazing women's health at Planned Parenthood and are caring for people genuinely that don't have any other access to care.

Kevin Wilson (45:45.191)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (45:52.465)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (46:08.802)
But there is an agenda. And I think at the Lute Clinic, you can come to us whether you are considering keeping your baby or not keeping your baby. And we're going to offer you the choice, the true choice. Would you like an ultrasound? Would you like to see your baby? Would you like to learn about how far along in your pregnancy? Would you like to talk about whether you want to keep the baby or not keep the baby?

Kevin Wilson (46:13.149)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (46:28.774)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (46:37.458)
What is it that you need to keep the baby that you don't have and how can we help? And I would say in eight years we've kept track of over 1,500 women that we've seen and we have about 10 who've chosen abortion once they've joined us in the clinic. And that statistic isn't because we guilt them or coerce them, it's because we truly empower them to make a choice. So for those who choose, great.

Kevin Wilson (46:41.971)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (46:48.659)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (46:54.163)
Mmm.

Penny Armbruster (47:03.394)
We have an amazing array of services to support you and care for you. Every single one of them is free. And I tell a patient, I don't know what you're carrying a burden when you walk in, but I know when you leave, you won't be on your own in any of those areas and you will be supported. Let's talk about the 10 women. That's just as important. The 10 women who chose abortion, they didn't leave with any condemnation. They didn't leave with any guilt.

Kevin Wilson (47:18.663)
Hmm. Hmm.

Penny Armbruster (47:31.47)
They left and I told them, listen, after you have your abortion, if you go through with it, I'm not sure that you're gonna get 24 seven care. So if you're in pain, if you're scared, if something happens to you medically, use call us, our 24 seven line is there for you. If you change your mind or you need someone to speak to, I'm there with you. I have never been asked to go with anybody to do it. Although I do have duelers who will go with you if you want someone to go with you, which is a

Kevin Wilson (47:40.016)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (47:47.859)
Mm.

Penny Armbruster (48:00.908)
very high calling and a very difficult calling. But again, we're there because afterwards we want that relationship that if you are feeling regret, if you are feeling guilt, if you are feeling burden, if you are medically not doing very well, that you know you can come back. Because we all make mistakes and we've all fallen short of the glory of God. And so I think that that is the big difference. Now, I've had my non-Christian colleagues tell me

Kevin Wilson (48:19.143)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (48:24.039)
Yes.

Penny Armbruster (48:31.028)
aren't you pressuring people? Aren't you saying that your faith is necessary to participate in the clinic? And I'm like, you know what? I'm so glad you asked that because absolutely not. Jesus gives us a free gift of grace. We don't earn it, we do nothing, we receive it. If I tie our medical care to faith in any way, that is a problem.

Kevin Wilson (48:42.097)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (48:50.407)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (48:56.416)
If I say you have to memorize scripture before you can do something or you have to watch a video before you can do something, I have made that a quid pro quo. So if you wanted to come to clinic and you wanted to go through the whole clinic and you never wanted to receive prayer and you never were interested in talking about anything to do with faith, you could do that and we would just love you. You would know why we were doing it, but we would just love you. But if you want to, we're there.

Kevin Wilson (48:56.605)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (49:18.323)
Mmm.

Penny Armbruster (49:24.522)
And so I think that also speaks volumes too, that we're not there to force you to make choices that we believe are appropriate or do things that we see are necessary. The Holy Spirit is more than capable of drawing people to himself. And if it's our love and our service and our compassion that does it, that is phenomenal. Often those girls keep a relationship with us for the rest of their lives and they might come back two and three years later and be ready to make a decision for Christ.

Kevin Wilson (49:40.593)
Yes.

Penny Armbruster (49:53.878)
might not be in that moment. But I think when you, I've spoken to patients who've been to Planned Parenthood, who've been told, there's no heartbeat, we're gonna have to perform a DNC. And then they've been told quietly by the nurse, don't believe them, they've turned the volume down.

Kevin Wilson (50:06.866)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (50:13.196)
my goodness.

Penny Armbruster (50:14.44)
And I'm not saying they're all like that. That would be disingenuous and I have no evidence to say that. But I've got incidences of coercion, incidences of things not being true. I also have incidents as a nurse at the local Planned Parenthood when she thinks people aren't sure about abortion, she sends them to me. So I don't want to say that God can't be working through all of that. But you've got to look at what the agenda is. And I would hope, strongly hope,

Kevin Wilson (50:34.033)
Hmm

Kevin Wilson (50:39.057)
Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (50:44.482)
that our agenda is truthfully to provide you with medical care that is life-saving for the child and life-saving for the mother as far as the infant and the mortality rates, that is empowering to the mother for choice-making and offers the opportunity to build faith. But again, all of those are a choice.

Kevin Wilson (51:05.171)
Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. And I yeah, I would encourage you if you are, you know, even thinking about going to Planned Parenthood, I would, you know, if you're in the Detroit area, because you guys are also in Flint, right? OK. And the Flint area as well to reach out to the Lou Clinic, because, know, you need you need to know the truth.

Penny Armbruster (51:21.794)
Yes.

Kevin Wilson (51:34.727)
Right. If, if, if you were to go to the doctor and you had cancer, if I were to talk to you right now, I'm talking to you that are listening. If I were to go to you and say, Hey, you know, the doctor said to you that you have cancer. would not want, you would not want if you had cancer for the doctor to tell you that you didn't have cancer or just go ahead and live your life. you're, you're fine. No problem. You wouldn't want that. Right. Because you want the best quality of life. Right. Even if you.

do have this disease? Well, I look at it the same way as our daughters, our sisters, our, our, people that we know, the women that we know, they deserve the truth. And when they go to these other places who say that they care about them, a lot of times they don't get the truth. And what, what Penny is saying, come to the Lute Clinic. We're going to

We're going to care for you. We're going to care for you wherever you like, whatever state of life you're in, we're going to care for you. And we're also going to tell you the truth. Right. And it's not the truth in the sense of, know, I always say on this show, you have there's two ways you can use light. You can use light to shine a path to for someone to see their next step. You can use that same light to blind a person. Right. And in what?

they're doing at the Luke Clinic is showing, giving you a light, this just, this little flashlight to see your next step, because you know what, right now, you probably can't see your next step. And they're not interested, you know, in, you you coming there and like Penny said, and you're just gonna get ambushed into this, you know, you better, you know, do all of these things.

That's not what they're asking. They're just saying, you know what? Give yourself a chance. Right. Not we can talk about the baby. Will you give yourself a chance? You're giving your baby a chance as well. And so I think it's amazing what you guys are doing. Penny, can you talk to us just in our last few minutes here? Can you just talk a little bit about just the sanctity of life, like where we are as a society when it comes to the sanctity of life? And I know that's a big, broad thing to say.

Kevin Wilson (54:01.671)
But just where do you sense we are as the church, as Christians? Like what can we do better? How can we get more involved? Like all the things.

Penny Armbruster (54:14.198)
So I'm quite passionate about this subject because I think when Roe v Wade was taken down, the church was all like, woohoo, you know, we've signed petitions and filled baby bottles with quarters for years and that's exciting. And I thought that honestly, this is not exciting because now we're going to see a fight like we've never seen. And in Michigan, within days, we had proposition three being formulated, which attacked life on every level in the womb.

Kevin Wilson (54:16.753)
Okay.

Kevin Wilson (54:34.407)
Mmm.

Penny Armbruster (54:44.018)
Afterwards, it eroded parental rights. There were so many things about it that were a problem. And really in the church, we did a very poor job of educating our people to truly understand Proposition 3. And it passed. And so now here we are in Michigan in one of the most abortion friendly states in the country. And I think we still as a church focus very heavily

Kevin Wilson (54:58.343)
Mmm.

Penny Armbruster (55:11.401)
on limiting a woman's access to abortion.

And I think we are missing the point. Because if we limit the woman's access to abortion, we turn her away from an abortion clinic, she goes back home to the same bed that she lay in that morning when she thought she had no choice but to have an abortion. You've changed nothing. If the church is to be truly pro-life, if the church is truly recognizing the sanctity of life,

Kevin Wilson (55:33.554)
Mm.

Penny Armbruster (55:41.078)
we should be doing everything we can to walk with that mother through that season of her life and beyond to empower her to keep that baby. And I do not think we have focused on that. And I am so proud that we work with so many spectacular, amazing pregnancy care centers who have been doing this for years. But as a church, we haven't gotten behind it. We haven't put our money there. And

Kevin Wilson (55:51.559)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (55:55.035)
Mm-hmm.

Penny Armbruster (56:10.572)
They could be doing so much more. We are so constrained financially. We could be doing so much more. We can only do financially what we can do. And that's being a good steward. But I'm telling you, if the church could support ministries like the Lute Clinic and like pregnancy care centers and truly have ministries that, you know, in our own churches, do we condemn teenage girls who get pregnant in youth group? Do we condemn?

Kevin Wilson (56:16.659)
Mmm.

Penny Armbruster (56:39.148)
girls who get pregnant out of wedlock in the church? Do we come alongside them and we let them know we love them, that we don't judge them and we're here to walk through it with them? No, we don't. So we don't live out what we believe. And I think we've got to get off this obsession with abortion and we've got to get much more focused on offering grace, love, support and a way to keep that baby. And where are we with the sanctity of life? Well,

Kevin Wilson (56:42.131)
Yeah.

Kevin Wilson (56:46.417)
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.

Penny Armbruster (57:08.098)
History repeats itself and we are definitely in a downward spiral. And I think the church is reeling to recover from the fact that we are no longer a Christian nation. And that is very hard for people to accept and it's really hard to see the church contracting in many areas and struggling. But I think we just have to advise to see through God's eyes what he is doing. He is not constrained, he is not.

Kevin Wilson (57:18.579)
Mm.

Penny Armbruster (57:33.41)
given up, he is not present, he is strongly fighting, he's strongly empowering, he's strongly present. And we need to get excited again about really the possibility of getting behind ministries that are walking with women and empowering women to keep their children. Because to me, that is where the future lies.

Kevin Wilson (57:42.973)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (57:58.023)
Hmm.

Wow. I wholeheartedly agree with you about the our focus is wrong. It really is. It's almost like, you know, when we focus on our sin instead of the Savior, we focus on the sin of these young ladies or the or their I mean, we say, but they some of these young ladies don't even they even start thinking about their their life with Christ like they're.

They got so much going on. have hormones raging. They just want to, you know, they got the the jock, the high school jock that just, you know, gave them, you know, a look. And, you know, they don't have a dad. Right. They've never been. They've never been. And I say this in air quotes. They've never been, you know, paid attention to or loved maybe the way that they feel like this person loves them.

And then they come to church, they have this, you know, they get pregnant and then we condemn them. And it's, it's so backwards. Like it's, it's not even the gospel. Like we look at the gospel and what Jesus did. Jesus had more. And we talked about this in this, one of my Bible studies just recently, we're talking about the Beatitudes. Jesus was more upset at the religious people of his day.

than he ever was to people who didn't understand it, who didn't know him, who were the broken, who were the people who were just didn't, they didn't know that they had hope, right? And Jesus was saying, hey, listen, I don't condemn you. Here's a new way forward and I'm going to help you. when he says go and sin no more, he knows that he's there to help them, right? So, but we focus so much and I...

Kevin Wilson (59:53.841)
You know, Penny, I and I, everyone doesn't agree with me on this. And I, I get very concerned about the people who and I'm I'm not saying the peaceful people. am talking about people who stand out outside of Planned Parenthood and yell and scream at these mothers telling them they're going to hell. And you're a whore. You are a murderer. Like all of these things. And I go.

If like who do you think that these people are gonna go if say they did want to be saved say they did want to go to church Do you think it's going to be you that they're going to run to at the end of the day? To help them in their in their this this walk that they want to start this journey with God It's not gonna be you it's going to be the people who work with you penny who say you know what I

I don't, I am not going to put you under, under this. These people don't even know God, but we treat them as if they're supposed to be walking this road that they don't even know about. Right.

Penny Armbruster (01:01:05.454)
We're safe by grace. It is a gift of grace. That means it's undeserved. We've all fallen short. Our best efforts are like filthy rags. And yet we are putting a burden on them that was never placed on us. We have to be extravagant grace givers. You know, there's a man, his name is Emmanuel. He's Catholic and he stands outside of abortion clinics and he's silent and he prays.

Kevin Wilson (01:01:08.796)
Yes.

Kevin Wilson (01:01:16.337)
Yes.

Kevin Wilson (01:01:21.745)
Yes. Yes.

Kevin Wilson (01:01:27.172)
Mm, mm.

Penny Armbruster (01:01:34.732)
And he has bought me many, many young girls who were either in the abortion clinic waiting room or in their car who felt strongly, I have to go talk to him. And when he brings a woman to me, he is committed to be with her for the rest of her life. It doesn't matter what she needs, he is there. And he doesn't protest with a sign, he doesn't make a fuss. He lets the power of the Holy Spirit do what the Holy Spirit needs to do.

Kevin Wilson (01:01:46.45)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:01:53.939)
Mmm.

Penny Armbruster (01:02:04.427)
And there have been seasons where I've had women who were in desperate circumstances, who were absolutely convinced they needed to have an abortion. And I just prayed, God bring Emmanuel. And he came and he just has such power in him because he is not leaning on his own understanding. He is loving, he is graceful, he serves these women and there is no condemnation or judgment in him. And that speaks.

Kevin Wilson (01:02:22.481)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:02:31.323)
Hmm.

Penny Armbruster (01:02:33.13)
volumes because honestly we are all wired to know, however we shove it down, that killing our child is wrong. We don't need to be called a murderer. We need to be told how can we help you not do this? Where are you at that this is your only choice? Who is not loving and protecting and caring for you?

Kevin Wilson (01:02:42.49)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Wilson (01:02:51.793)
Yeah. Yeah.

Hmm.

Penny Armbruster (01:02:59.948)
because this boyfriend might've promised you everything and left you, but let me tell you about the God who will never leave you or forsake you.

Kevin Wilson (01:03:07.831)
Mm hmm. hmm. Folks, you've heard it. And I think this is our time to act. think this is our moment. So some of you and I know there's there's a lot of you listeners because a lot of you listen in other states. A lot of you listen in other countries. And I understand that you're going you go, Kevin, how in the world?

Am I going to be able to help the Luke clinic when I live in, you know, Iran or I live in, you know, all these other countries that listen, I, I get it. Okay. Here's how this is the awesome thing about God. God will always find a way to, as long as you're willing and as long as you are open to the Holy spirit, he gives you a way to be able to help.

There is not a person on this planet that can't help the Luke clinic. I, you, there's, if you, there's no one. Right. So here's what I want you to do. I want you to go to the Luke clinic.org. Right. Just www.thelukeclinic.org. And here's what I want you to do. I want you to donate money to the Luke clinic. Right. This is not an organization that is patting their pockets and trying to.

do anything else other than help people, right? If we say that we care about life, if we say that we care about mothers and we care about the sanctity of life and let's not virtue signal, let's not thumbs up this video, let's not just say, wow, that was a great interview. Guys, let's take action.

And so here's, here's what I want you to do. I want you to go to that website and I want you to give what the Holy spirit has prompted you. And you may have been thinking while you've been listening, my gosh, I really need to give, or I need to, I don't care if it's $10. I don't care if it's $30. Some of you listening, you can give $10,000. You can give $50,000. You can give money to this clinic. if you, if you give monthly to this show,

Kevin Wilson (01:05:28.965)
Here's, here's what I want to tell you. Why don't you skip some months and give to the loop clinic? I promise you, I'd much rather you give to them than to give to this show. This show will go on, but these type of organizations need your help. They literally do not survive without your money. Like I, I, know, as most of you know, they're listening. I am a former senior pastor, and I knew with our church.

If people stop giving our church ceased to exist. Period. There was no church. That's just so understand that's how the Luke clinic is. Right. So do find what you can and, and, and do what you can. We all, I understand we all have struggles. We all have things we can always make it, but you know, we get coffee, we get Starbucks, we get McDonald's, we do all the things. So I know we could do this. And so,

Hey, you know, Penny didn't ask me to do this. She didn't say, Hey, could you please? Nope. She didn't ask for that. This is me reaching out to you saying, I know, I know we can let's do this together. Penny, I appreciate so much you coming on the show today. I really do. And, what, you know, what are some things, if somebody goes to the website, will they see what they can help with? Cause I know you guys can use a different help.

What does that look like?

Penny Armbruster (01:06:57.526)
Yes, it's really something for everybody. Prayer is just really powerful. Prayer is what drives us praying for our ministry. We have an Amazon wish list and a Walmart wish list for tangible goods. Every time someone takes an education class, if they take safe sleep, they get a pack and play. If they take car seat safety, they get a car seat. If they take bathing your baby, they get a bath. All of those things are provided for by donations. So you'll see wish lists.

Kevin Wilson (01:07:04.284)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:07:10.931)
Hmm.

Penny Armbruster (01:07:26.35)
you'll see the option to join us as a monthly donor or a one-time donor. And if you do that, you have the option, we'll be sending you a newsletter and a thank you note and you can stay with that newsletter or you can unsubscribe, but that really comes once a quarter, unless there's special things going on and we'll share prayer requests and we'll share stories. you find a way that however you participate, you can stay in touch.

I come out and talk to churches, I come out and talk to your Bible study groups. I feel like the gift I've been given is the opportunity to share what the God who sees is doing and to encourage the body. So feel free, you can reach out to me, there's a contact us. Anything I can do that helps you share the message in your church or your community groups, I'd love to do.

Kevin Wilson (01:08:04.849)
Hmm

Kevin Wilson (01:08:17.617)
Yeah, absolutely. And, Penny, I just, I, I, I thank God that he's used your life to do this. And I, I know you're not looking for accolades and all of that. I get it. But I also understand how it's not easy to always say yes. And they're, know, you spend a lot of your life doing things. I mean, you could be going, you could be out on the beach somewhere or doing whatever.

And I'm not saying you don't take vacations because you should. But you could be spending your life for yourself and that's all. And you're not. And because of that, so many people are being helped. And you're not going to know until you get to heaven how many people have come to Christ based on your ministry and, you know, family members of the people that you've served. Like that's

Wild and I love that so much and so I just want you to know we really appreciate you we we thank you for what you're doing and Yeah, we're gonna wait I want I want our listeners to to do everything that they can to help Again, they're in there. They have some they have a location Detroit and in flint For those of you who are not from the Michigan area flint is the town where they had that water crisis

Where they found all the lead and they had so many issues and that that town truly is still reeling and and trying to come back from where from all of that and and So, please like I say if you can help and we appreciate that Don't forget two four eight three zero one twenty ten if you want to talk directly to me or you want to get right into the show two four eight

three zero one twenty ten. Any prayer request, any topic suggestions, any of that stuff. We are willing to collaborate with you. And I just want to say God bless you. We will see you next time on the show. God bless.