{Ep.137} EX-Witch Freed From The New Age and The Occult | Guest: Jac Marino Chen

In this compelling episode, Jac Marino Chen shares her extraordinary journey from darkness to light. Raised in a life marked by sexual abuse and addiction, Jac sought solace in the New Age movement, eventually becoming deeply involved with an occult order called The Golden Dawn. Her pursuit of ancient mysticism, Egyptian magic, and interactions with demonic entities led her into a world of sorcery practiced within a Freemason lodge.

But God had other plans. Jac recounts how Jesus saved her from the grips of the occult and transformed her life, leading her into a personal relationship with Him. Her story is a testament to the power of redemption and the unwavering grace of God.

Join us as we explore Jac’s incredible testimony of deliverance, healing, and hope. This episode will inspire anyone seeking freedom from spiritual bondage.

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Transcript

Kevin Wilson (00:01.488)
Welcome back to the Thinking Out Loud podcast. My name is Kevin Wilson, and I am excited to be back with you again for another week of the show. And like we have said, this season is going to be a season of encouragement. This is going to be a season of stories that and testimonies that you're going to hear from people who have been delivered and set.

free and I know that we have went in a few different directions. We have been in a series about the Beatitudes and how God really desires us to live based on those things, but also we are talking to different people who have come out of different religions and places that is frankly contrary to the word of God, but

as they were in these things, they thought that they were doing God's work. They thought they were getting closer to God. And so today is no different. You know, the testimony you're going to hear today is it's simply astounding. Our guest today was a victim of abuse, addiction and was steeped in the New Age and the occult.

until God got a hold of her life. Jack Marino recently served as the social media director at Redeemer Bible Church. She is the host of New Age to New Heart. It's a podcast that not only exposes the new age and the cult, but it also helps people come out of that lifestyle. And Jack

Marina joins us now. Jack, thanks for being on the Thinking Out Loud podcast.

Jac Marino Chen (01:57.814)
Yes, thank you so much for having me. It's a blessing to be here and just always such a joy to get to glorify God and share what he's done in my life.

Kevin Wilson (02:05.778)
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And so, you know, I really want to start, Jack. And, you know, when I heard and we were talking just a little bit before we got on air, but when I heard your your testimony, I just knew immediately. I said, you know, my audience needs to hear this. And I am so grateful for what God has done in your life. I truly, truly am. And so

I want to start though from the beginning. And as we talk about the new age, the occult, all of these things, tell me a little bit about your childhood, your upbringing, you were a Christian. Like what did that look like?

Jac Marino Chen (02:52.15)
Yes, that's a great question. I thought I was a Christian growing up. I really thought Christianity was something that you were just born into, kind of like if you're born in America, you're an American. If you're born into a quote unquote Christian family, you are a Christian. I thought everyone in my family was a Christian. And so that's just kind of what I thought. I would go to a Methodist church on the weekends and I was in a preschool attached to the church and I went to Sunday school.

And I don't remember hearing the gospel. That doesn't mean that they didn't preach it. It just wasn't something that was ingrained in me or that I remember at that young age. But Jesus was just for me, someone who I imagined when I was scared. So I really, although I thought that was my Christian upbringing, did not have an understanding of the gospel or of the biblical true Jesus Christ. And in my young age, I was sexually abused and that left

a lot of confusion, a lot of secrecy. I began lying to cover up the abuse when I realized that if it was discovered that I would, was afraid I would get in trouble. And I learned pretty quickly that even at such a young age that once you lie, you have to keep lying to cover up those lies. And so that was very isolating. The abuse, the shame of the abuse, the hiding it, and then also really quickly, not even truly knowing who I was because there was so much going on.

Kevin Wilson (04:08.18)
Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (04:20.722)
and acting out as a result of that abuse at a young age. There's so much that could be said about the ways that childhood sexual abuse affects a child and is confusing. And so just, there was a lot of shame involved in those areas that led to me isolating more and feeling more different and alone and all those things. And...

When I was around the age of seven, I received a call from a family member basically saying that the person who had been abusing me had been caught.

abusing a young child, a toddler-ish age and that basically saying, did this person ever touch you? Did anything ever happen? And I just remember it was like time stopped and I'm sitting there on this house phone and I'm just, it was just in that moment I just decided I would.

never tell anyone what had happened. was so afraid. I didn't think I could deal with the what would happen if I shared. I didn't know how it would affect my family. There's just so much going on and I just decided, well, one, I didn't know Jesus. So I didn't know who God truly is, that he's a loving father, that he's perfectly holy and perfectly good. And that

Kevin Wilson (05:29.693)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (05:40.017)
you

Jac Marino Chen (05:41.486)
He loves he created us were made in his image that he Sustains us I didn't have an understanding of who God truly is I certainly didn't have an understanding of what sin was all that I really knew at that age was that I might get in trouble, but I didn't know that you know all of sin didn't fall in short of the glory of God and that I could have run to God in the pain that I was experienced experiencing and even the consequences maybe of someone else's sin and I didn't know that God had sent his only begotten

Son Jesus who was born to a virgin, God incarnate, truly God and truly man who lived a perfect life, a perfect life, tempted as we are yet never sinning, living that perfect life, going to the cross where he was beaten, mocked, scorched and crucified and on that cross bearing the sin of the world and that just punishment that

Kevin Wilson (06:20.232)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (06:35.33)
that sin deserves in the place of those who believe. didn't understand that Jesus who truly died on the cross, rose on the third day and is the only way to the Father, the one mediator between God and man, and that I could have true forgiveness if I put my faith in Jesus and turn from any rebellion, that I could be made a new creation, that I could take these kind of pains to God and run to him and pray to him, and that he would have sustained me, helped me.

Kevin Wilson (06:49.683)
Hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (07:05.274)
walked me through that, Ben, my good shepherd, I didn't know that. And so in that moment on the phone, I just thought, I am going to lie and I'm going to lie to myself. And if I believe my lie that this never happened, then I can just write my own story. I can make my own, you know, Disney fairy tale or whatever. I can make my own reality. And so in that moment, I decided that and that is how I lived really.

until I was in my 20s, I just suppressed it. Anytime I had the thought of it, I would run from it. And so that was kind of the foundation in how I entered into the world.

Kevin Wilson (07:45.394)
Hmm. And so when you talk to your parent, like what? I mean, you were really young. So like there is I mean, I look at that and I go, I mean, there's no bucket to put that in in your mind. Right. You have no idea how to handle what was even going on. So, you know, like what? I mean, was there anybody that?

Jac Marino Chen (08:00.238)
Mm-hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (08:07.181)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (08:10.096)
you could have reached out to or was it just like you said it was just a shame that just caused you not to

Jac Marino Chen (08:16.556)
Yeah, you know, it's hard to say. Also, when I was five, my mother and father separated because my dad had, unrelated to the abuse, my dad had...

a drug and alcohol addiction problem. And it got to the point that my mom didn't feel safe for us to live with him. But in my mind, my dad was very like someone I could talk to very close with him. And so that was devastating. And that kind of fed into more of my isolating my mom than was a single mom working a full time job. I spent a lot of time being watched, you know, by other people.

So yes and no, in a sense, yes, I had family who cared about me very much and made a lot of sacrifices to take care of me. But in another sense, no, because of that isolating, because of that shame, because of the pain and some other things that had gone on in my life that fed into that me feeling isolated and no one really knows me and I'm alone in this. I really think that that fed into me just trying to take it into my own control and make my life what I wanted to.

at such a young age really not having a context for any of this. And again, not knowing the gospel at all, not knowing God at all. So definitely not having him to run to in the sense I did in truth, but I didn't understand that.

Kevin Wilson (09:35.506)
And around this same time, so around seven years old, was this the time you had you felt like you had this encounter with like what you thought were angels? Tell us a little bit about that.

Jac Marino Chen (09:43.649)
Yes.

Jac Marino Chen (09:47.404)
Yeah. Yeah. My dad, I thought that they were the angels of my dad's friends who'd passed away. So I was alone. I saw these lights in the sky. And I say lights because that's what they looked like. they kind of look like stars, guess, just lights that came down. But they felt like this very personal presence. only way, the best word I can use is familiar, like this powerful familiar presence. And

that it just meant so much to me because I felt like these entities knew me, they saw me, they knew everything that had happened, and I was special to them. And I really latched onto that and held onto it and held it as near and dear to me because, again, in that isolation, that experience meant so much to me because I felt like, one, I think the flesh is kind of drawn to these supernatural otherworldly

experiences and I had one and then two me believing that I'm special to these entities they know me they see me they get me gave me this new identity of not again at first I thought it was the angels of my dad's friends who passed away from complications with drug and alcohol abuse

that I was close to, but then later on, I started learning about UFOs and aliens and that context made more sense for what I experienced. So then that was the lens that I started to view that experience through and continued growing this fascination, wanting more of these contact experiences and really valuing this as part of my identity.

Kevin Wilson (11:26.676)
Hmm. So when these and and was this like a I don't know. Was this like a trance? Like like how did you sense? Because there's there's people out there right now because you know, there's so many people who dabble into things that they should not dabble into and they have no idea that's what they're even doing.

Jac Marino Chen (11:35.726)
Hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (11:49.23)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (11:52.754)
Right. Because, know, I think about how the scripture says that the enemy can transform himself to an angel of light. You know, I also think about when Moses was, you know, when, he would go to Pharaoh and, know, he would throw down his staff and it would turn to snakes and then they, you know, the magicians would do like all of these types of things. And with our society being so like into the paranormal.

And, know, they're, really looking for God is what they're looking for. Cause they know that there is something greater than them, but the enemy always seems to be able to draw people into this counterfeit fake spirituality. And so what, because other people may have experienced something like this before, I don't even know how to, what to do with it. What was that like for you? when, when this was like, you said a familiar presence.

Jac Marino Chen (12:25.89)
Mm-hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (12:51.946)
Yeah, it did not, although I'll say at the time it did not feel like, you know, a trans or a dream or anything like that. It felt very real, like the most real thing I had experienced. And

Kevin Wilson (13:06.708)
Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (13:11.503)
It's so hard to put in words because when I say lights, you just think lights, but it was this very powerful supernatural presence and power and feeling that as you're talking about this draw to this supernatural that, okay, what does this all mean? What does this mean for who I am? It was very enticing. And then as I continued growing up and pursuing these kind of experiences,

even though I thought that I wouldn't say it felt like love, but I didn't see it as a malevolent evil thing at all. I saw it as just this really powerful, exciting experience that I had that had then made me special.

Kevin Wilson (13:46.356)
Mm.

Kevin Wilson (13:55.149)
And so what did that lead to? So how did you get into like, OK, because, know, that that could have been an event. And then you just kind of said, OK, that was weird or that was interesting and kind of moved on. How did that affect, you know, kind of those next few years?

Jac Marino Chen (14:16.172)
Yeah, well, just, you now I truly believe that they were demons and that it was a demonic experience. And but I grew this trust for these beings. And again, I can't stress it enough, this identification with that these are my friends, that they know me, that they see me. They're the only ones who really know me. So it was this weird like love affair, for lack of better words, growing up.

I started making my own Ouija boards and I had this pride in like I'm special because I have this supernatural connection.

lusted after that more of those supernatural experiences and you know, buying a Ouija board wasn't enough for me. I wanted to make my own on wood to try to have more of those supernatural experiences. And that was in like middle school we're talking. So just really this excitement about supernatural not thinking it to be a bad thing.

still would have said I was a Christian, still did not understand the gospel at all. I might have said Jesus is Lord and he died for my sins, but there was no understanding of what that actually meant. And also in middle school, I started to self-harm and had an eating disorder. And I was just, there was, you know, a lot of pain from pushing down these memories. I remember remembering the abuse and being so upset that I hadn't completely forgot because as a

young person you don't really understand how I didn't I can speak for myself understand how that works or that that was very unwise to try to just never think about it again and then I could believe my own lie kind of thing so that really played out in me just feeling anguish just feeling misunderstood and isolated turning then to drugs and alcohol

Jac Marino Chen (16:01.772)
to numb this pain and that alcohol was the first time that I really actually did forget in the moment that I was drunk. And so that became my new identity in a sense. It was the next thing that I was always pursuing. And this drug and alcohol supernatural experience, basically in high school, I came across the book, Secret by Rhonda Byrne and that...

teaches the law of attraction. And so I'd already been, you know, into these supernatural things. But now this book gave me a context for the experiences that I had had. basically teaches that you are this magnetic force and you magnetize things into your life that you can make your will be done by

Kevin Wilson (16:30.484)
Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (16:46.99)
creating your own reality and that you are the most magnetic thing in the universe, that you're so powerful and it draws in the universe in this mystic sort of way. And so while still calling myself a Christian, I grasped onto this very, like I had found this map that now explained my life because I was putting my supernatural experiences as the authority and I found something that affirmed what I'd experienced.

Kevin Wilson (17:18.873)
Did you know at the time that Christians were because I mean the book The Secret, mean everyone was reading this book. I mean, I say everyone but you know, there were non Christians and Christians that were promoting this book. I mean, is this something that you knew that Christians were promoting or you just

Jac Marino Chen (17:38.55)
Hmm. Yeah, I definitely didn't think that there is anything wrong with, you know, embracing it. I knew people that identified as Christians who didn't see anything wrong with it. And so, yeah, I definitely didn't think I was drifting outside of the, you know, the path of Christianity. Again, having no understanding what that even means, but.

I also, when I did have one family in particular that was Christian and did confront me in a sense and say, your life doesn't add up. I would just think you're judging me and you don't know my heart and how judgmental. So I just kind of categorize them as judgmental Christians. Again, having no understanding that I was living like the world and even like the devil and yet calling myself a Christian didn't make any sense at all.

Kevin Wilson (18:26.248)
Hmm. So how did that then? So so you're you're in this place where you've had this and you've had this encounter. You're now at a place where you are. mean, you're you you're doing drugs, you're alcohol, all these things to kind of numb like these these issues that have been in your in the past. But it's all making you go deeper and deeper and deeper into this.

new agey kind of thing. how did that, how did that present itself on a random Tuesday morning or a random Thursday morning? Like what were you doing or what kind were you having more encounters? Like what did that look like for you?

Jac Marino Chen (19:11.502)
Yeah, well, that's a great question. In my younger years, like really even before middle school, had where I believe the aliens were outside my window and visiting me and I was kind of freaked out. I would have moments where, well, really the whole time.

The presence felt so powerful and scary that it would I would be scared But I also was so fascinated and drawn and felt special and called that I would still seek it out but then when it would Occur I would be afraid and it so it was just kind of weird a weird thing to navigate and then in middle school the Ouija board thing and then in high school and

freshman years when the drugs and alcohol abuse started and I was really just escaping myself every moment. So, you know, on a day to day, it was just looking forward to the next time I could get out of my, parents' house and be wasted in some way. the throughout the day, I was so fixated on manifesting my life, thinking the positive thoughts, making, I had vision boards in my room where I'd cut out a bunch of

pictures in a magazine, ways I wanted to look, things I wanted, a car I wanted, a relationship I wanted, putting them on a board and just believing, you know, if I put this into my mind and I imagine what it's like when I have it and how it feels and how, you know, the car smells and sounds and all these things, then I can attract it to myself, not understanding how deeply occult these teachings are, but...

you know, in this more glittery, beautiful, Barnes and Noble kind of sold way. And so that's really what it looked like. And then, you know, still living fast, not thinking. I was just thinking about the next time I was going to escape myself, really. And at the end of high school, I got into a relationship with a man who was Native American and lived on a Native American reservation. I what he became my new identity. And we'd stay up all night.

Kevin Wilson (20:55.124)
Hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (21:19.07)
doing drugs and we talk more about aliens and the stars and universe and our place in it, but also about the elements and Native American spirituality and things that I hadn't heard of before, but I started to let go of the very little that I knew about biblical Christianity to embrace this more spiritual worldview that gave, again, place for my

experiences that I had had and so me sneaking out and staying the night on the Native American reservation and staying up having these conversations embracing these alien things really helped, sadly helped me go deeper and deeper into I didn't know New Age the word and I wouldn't have called myself New Age I didn't know the trajectory that I was headed on but it was feeding that

Kevin Wilson (22:10.386)
Hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (22:12.716)
that flame that was growing into this, ultimately that led me into the occult and ritual magic.

Kevin Wilson (22:21.074)
What's the difference for those that don't fully know it because sometimes the lines get even blurred for me because I I you know, I but What's the difference between new age and the occult like is it what like and I think they kind of you know Kind of go together at some points. But like what if somebody said well, but I'm into new age Like I'm not really into the occult

Like I'm not into like bad stuff and dark magic and being a witch and all of that. Like what what's the difference?

Jac Marino Chen (22:55.022)
Hmm.

Yeah, that's a really good question. New age can a lot of the times be seen as like, you can take it just takes from a bunch of different religions and cultures. And it's kind of about ascending to a higher level of consciousness. so there people can be a new ager and be a different flavor of new age, if that makes sense. Like there's different denominations, for lack of a better word. Actually, that word doesn't really work. But there's so many different ways you can be a new ager and have these different flavors of

Kevin Wilson (23:17.714)
Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (23:27.0)
I'm picking and choosing these beliefs to go in. But at the end of the day, occult just ultimately basically means hidden and has to do with hidden knowledge, which is a big part of the new age. You're learning this secret knowledge that's helping you ascend. And but at the end of the day, if you follow most new age teachings like the law of attraction, like so many teachings in astrology, crystal magic, if you follow where that

comes from. If you follow the trail or the route, you're going to end up ultimately in the occult, in that secret knowledge, in these... And, you know, many occultists don't believe that what they're doing is dark. They believe that it's good because Satan twists things and he disguises himself as an angel of light, to your point, 2 Corinthians 11, 14. so, all that to say...

In a sense, New Age is like what can be watered down occultism, but it's still just as dangerous and dark. just presents in a more beautiful way than a lot of the time people in the occult do.

Kevin Wilson (24:41.118)
So you're in this relationship with this person. You keep going deeper and deeper because I'm assuming, know, at that point you're I mean, I'm just thinking of that type of what they believe in, like, you know, ancestors talking to their ancestors and that type of thing. So that just kind of takes you. So do you feel like you just kind of sunk deeper into the occult more at that time at that point?

Jac Marino Chen (25:09.651)
Not quite yet, but I was on that path.

Kevin Wilson (25:11.646)
Okay.

Jac Marino Chen (25:12.958)
That relationship was physically abusive and just very difficult, but my whole identity was in this person. The relationship ended up ending in a very violent way. And at that point, I just felt completely empty. Again, now I was college age, still did not know who I was at all, was just living moment to moment to escape myself. And that summer that we broke up, I tried meth and heroin and was just...

anything to try to get out of feeling the pain that I was in and so lost, so hopeless because I didn't know truth but I had this pride thinking that I still have this basically secret knowledge or this special supernatural relationship. And during this time I met a guy who was a drug dealer and I moved in with him right away and the first time that I saw him I felt that same feeling when I saw him as I felt the first

Kevin Wilson (25:44.02)
Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (26:11.85)
time that I saw those what I had called alien entities and really every other time this familiar powerful connection and so even though I wasn't attracted to him at that time I moved in because I just didn't want to leave this connection you know in a very dark empty

part of my life, don't know who I am, I find this connection, which I truly now believe was demonic. And this man started teaching me, I didn't know it at the time, but truly new age ideology. And he became basically my God. Like I was his devotee in a sense. I hung on his every word and he started teaching me.

Just a lot about karma and the universe and I started doing psychedelic drugs with him and Really? Whatever I had left of truth that I knew I gave away to embrace this Ideology and he was a DJ and he ended up DJing at music festivals that are Transformational music festivals or transcendental music festivals that are similar to Burning Man kind of festivals where you're going to have this transformational experience

and started going to those, getting into, you know, crystal magic. They had these tantra yoga tents, which there were just some things that the Lord by His grace restrained me that I just, I could not do. But I thought it was my Christian dogma holding me back from being a free spirit. And I really believed that. And I was ashamed that my Christian upbringing had made me this way and I couldn't be free.

Kevin Wilson (27:42.74)
Mmm.

Jac Marino Chen (27:54.338)
but I started embracing astrology and, you know, trying LSD and just wanting to have these experiences. And my experiences on LSD and psilocybin affirmed the supernatural experiences that I had at a child and had continued happening because they heightened the intensity of what I experienced. And so it was just affirming, affirming, affirming my experiences. And so of course, if it's affirming,

these supernatural experiences that I heightened so much and that means so much to me. want to keep going down this path that

one affirms my sin, I didn't have to turn from my addiction or living for myself or anything like that, but also gave me a place for these supernatural experiences. And so really that's the point that I was in in the new age where, you know, I, everything was a trip and everything had a different meaning, interpreting signs and omens like crazy. Anytime I, every number meant something, every time meant something. So I would.

Kevin Wilson (28:45.94)
Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (28:55.852)
What does this number mean? Got into angel numbers and numerology and just really started seeing the world through this new age thing. I thought I was having an awakening experience and it was started to just kind of get scary because everything was so unreal. Like I didn't know what was, I was actually seeing what was physical reality and what was me seeing something beyond this physical reality.

And that relationship was extremely painful because I believe this man was was me. He taught me a lot of things like we'd lived hundreds of lives, but we were each other. And in some lives, tragically, we chose to have.

other quests, but we were always meant to be together. And so he truly became an idol for me. And so I was just hanging on the teachings that he was teaching and really placing my identity in this relationship and really wanting to grow in this new age spirituality to please him and to feed my pride.

Kevin Wilson (30:03.79)
Tell me a little bit about the Golden Dawn and how that kind of played into your life.

Jac Marino Chen (30:07.191)
Hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (30:13.004)
Yeah, so I that this relationship ended up ending and it was just, mean, I don't have words for how that was that was the moment for me where it was just emptiness.

At that point, I had moved to Hollywood. I had moved into a studio apartment to be close to him. He was supposed to help me unpack and it ended in a very, very confusing way. And so I was just alone in Hollywood in a studio apartment and I really didn't know what to do. And there's a lot of confusion and anger. I believed at this point, I believe this man could always see me and that he was coming back for me. And like, I had really lost sense of reality.

in a very painful way. And I also, I realized that this new age stuff wasn't working. My dad had moved to Hollywood to be, or I had tried to have my dad move to Hollywood to be close to me and he had kind of run away from that situation and was on the streets and I was his responsible party.

I had lost this relationship that was literally everything to me and I was deeply in anguish and absolutely miserable and completely empty and I just thought, know what? This isn't working clearly. I'm trying to manifest my life, but this is bad. And what's

The problem is that my Christian dogma is holding me back. And these things that I had, what I now know was my conscience bearing witness that what I was doing was sin. I just wanted to see her and I just wanted to go headlong and find where the real power was. I had pride thinking that new age was an aesthetic for a lot of people that I knew and I wanted to actually grow in power. There was just a lot of sin in my heart and a lot of pain. And so during that,

Jac Marino Chen (32:06.73)
This season, this prolonged season of me alone in the studio apartment, my family was supporting me. I was not working at that time. I believe that I was being led by one, what I called my aliens and also this Egyptian deity called Thoth. Things would glow to me, like physically glow. And I would, I was just being led by these entities. I completely believe it was demonic.

And I should not have been surprised because for a while before that, I believed that these entities wanted to use my body and see through my eyes. But because these were quote unquote, my aliens from childhood who loved me and I was special to them and I'd been called to this. I, I thought that was noble for these entities to use my body and see through my eyes. I did not ever think of that as possession, but now I definitely do. And I basically was led to.

this Freemason Lodge that was glowing when I was on a walk and I was super drawn to it, sat outside of it, was like breathing in the energy and I just thought this, I know that this is the next thing. This was after many next things, including a Thoth tarot deck.

by Alastair Crowley, who is known as the most wicked man to have ever lived, but I spent all my time taking in the both tarot decks artists images to my psyche and looking at the astrological signs and houses and everything was just this tied in esoteric, deep dark tangled web and.

I reached out to this Freemason lodge saying this long email about how I'd been called to this. And they basically said that in America, there are not women Freemasons. In England, there are some, but that they have the order of the Eastern star.

Jac Marino Chen (34:07.218)
and they named some other orders that are connected to Freemasonry. And I had some family ties, but I saw the Eastern Star's image was a pentagram. And me still at times identifying as a Christian, sometimes I proudly identified as a pagan, sometimes I identified as a Christian, just a very lost girl. I was afraid that the pentagram was evil.

making my own judgments, having no morality. And so I thought, I can't do that. But the Golden Dawn, which I found out about through Alastair Crowley and the Thoth tarot deck that I had, I felt very called to that. And I kept feeling like my entities, these entities were leading me.

Kevin Wilson (34:38.824)
Mm-hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (34:55.79)
back over and over again to this order called the Golden Dawn. But I knew that Alastair Crowley again was known as one of the most wicked men or the most wicked man to have ever lived. And he was in it. And so I just was like, this could be evil again, the whole time not thinking anything I was doing was evil. And but I kept being drawn back to it. And I worded it as it was this door I kept being led to, but I was too afraid to walk through it because I was afraid it was evil, basically. And so I turned back.

but then I just kept being led back to it and over and over again. And I was very confused and for lack of better words, tripped out. And I ended up after a long time of this getting to a point where I just thought I need to, just, this is the next thing. And in order to move forward, I need to go through this metaphorical door and join this order.

Kevin Wilson (35:34.004)
Hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (35:50.7)
And at that point I would say I was deep in the occult. When I was alone in my studio apartment, I'd got into Kabbalistic texts and just a lot of deep dark things, believing that I was led by that entity getting into ancient Egyptian mythology and mysticism and alchemy and hermeticism and astrology, astral projection, lucid dreaming, all these ways I was going outside of my body and having these experiences.

I'd already really been in that world for a while. And so I ended up reaching out to, I found out that there was a order in my area, a Golden Dawn order. And I reached out to them for more information. And then I received a call back to meet with someone about joining.

Kevin Wilson (36:45.586)
And so you, wow. Like it's crazy. Like just listening of how you went from like it's, it's like the enemy. was almost like, it's like a web. It's a web. It's like, well, if I don't get her here, then I'm to get her here. And then if I don't get her, like, it's just, it's crazy. Why? And I'm just curious. This Alistair

Jac Marino Chen (36:59.799)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Jac Marino Chen (37:13.784)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (37:15.08)
Crowley person. Why do they believe that he's the most evil man that's ever lived?

Jac Marino Chen (37:23.02)
Yeah, well, he was very wicked, very depraved. I would not recommend anyone read his material, but there's sex magic involved in very gross ways. He wanted to be the beast, I believe it was, either the beast or the Antichrist, but I'm pretty sure it was the beast. He actually wanted to be that.

Kevin Wilson (37:50.996)
Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (37:51.006)
And he just had this obsession with Satan and wanting to invoke and bring in Satan in these very, very dark ways. But he played a huge part in bringing just esotericism and this kind of occultism to the Western world over from England.

Kevin Wilson (38:16.264)
Mm-hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (38:16.918)
He's known as the most wicked man because he what he did the rituals that he did the kind of magic that he wrote was deeply disturbing and wicked. But he also had other writings that were less blatantly disturbing. They were still just as demonic and dark, but they didn't. They didn't open in such a graphic disgusting.

perverted way and those were more of the texts that I was reading not knowing kind of where it all led and not knowing quite to the degree that he was wicked but knowing that other people said he was wicked.

Kevin Wilson (38:43.496)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (38:47.815)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (38:57.994)
When did you realize that the this new this Golden Dawn like the Eastern Star and this organization at you know, this masonry and all that like when did you realize that that was not the thing? That you were looking for.

Jac Marino Chen (39:14.646)
Yeah, I think I'm right. That's a great question. In a sense, I knew from the beginning that it wasn't good or maybe not good. Deep down, I thought maybe Lucifer or Satan was behind it. I just didn't know for sure and I wanted to find out. And that sounds terrible because it is, but that is where I was at. Again, I did not know Jesus, but I thought I did. And so that was...

super confusing to think that I knew Jesus and was saved so therefore I could do these things. a totally no understanding of the gospel at all. I ended up meeting with this guy who I had had a phone call with and we met at a coffee place and everything that he talked to me about was exactly what these entities had been leading me to from Hermeticism to astral projection, astrology, ancient Egyptian religion, Kabbalah, all these things were exactly what

this order was going to teach me, which was very affirming and was to me this clear, this is my next step. And so it was decided that that following Sunday I would be initiated into it at a Freemason launch. so that is what I did. And the initiation, didn't think that it was a...

scary. I just thought it was powerful. It was, you know, black robes and very ceremonial and had to swear I would never share anything that was taught in it. And it was very, it was very,

maybe powerful is a better word, in the sense that I think was stuffing down fear and telling myself this is exciting. But the whole thing was, you know, what you would imagine it being just a dark ritual. And I started going there regularly to meet to learn the esoteric school of thought and to practice ritual magic, to do spell work, to, we would.

Jac Marino Chen (41:20.054)
It was all very demonic. But a reason why I joined it was that the symbol had a cross in it. And I was told that you could be a Christian and be in it and that they drew from the Christian faith. so I, that, you know, again, that affirmed my sin. great. I can be a Christian. There's a cross. Christ is a central part of this. Not knowing, not understanding that it was a completely different Christ. In the Golden Dawn, Christ is someone that you become.

The literature that I was given literally said that there's no vicarious atonement. You must be your own Jesus.

totally wrong. You can never save yourself. But that was quote unquote empowering or it presented as empowering that I would gain the power to be my own redeemer. Such a lie I could have never been. But we were taking Eucharist to an Egyptian deity and it was just, it was these invocations of Egyptian deities. And I thought that it was sacred. I thought that I was gaining a more,

correct view of the Bible?

that I had the secret knowledge that Christians didn't have. And I knew how to really read the Bible through code, through something called gematria, which is bit cobalistic, seeing every Hebrew letter as also being a number and an element. And everything just becomes this code. And the ritual room would be set up using biblical things like the table of showbread or all these things. So all that to just share that I just

Kevin Wilson (42:30.1)
Mm-hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (42:59.824)
Justified what I was doing and I'm sure many other people did by saying this is biblical We have a deeper understanding of the Bible. You can be a Christian and do this. See Jesus is a part of this Jesus is Totally redefined, but it's still Jesus. So Justifying sin making excuses for sin and while I was practicing all of this

I had no peace. I was so empty. And I would have these fleeting moments of, powerful things. I thought I had visions of Christ that were completely opposed to the Bible, but I didn't know that. So I didn't want to turn from it, but...

Kevin Wilson (43:24.786)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (43:32.264)
Hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (43:34.958)
I was absolutely wicked on the inside. was having terrible, terrible supernatural experiences, demonic experiences. I was scared. I didn't recognize whatever was behind my eyes anymore. I remember hearing this voice when I was looking at myself in the mirror and I used to think like, I don't know quite yet if what I'm doing is evil, but I'm good. And I heard this terrifying voice say, it's crazy how evil becomes you.

because who I had become, like I was evil.

Kevin Wilson (44:04.98)
you

Mm. Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (44:08.95)
and that terrified me and I didn't really, it just felt like there was this deep pit below me all the time and I would spend my day trying to distract myself to avoid it but I really thought I had gotten so deep in that I couldn't crawl out and I really got to the point that I believe the demonic lie that even Jesus couldn't save me, that I was just too far gone, that I'd been living this life of suppressing and pushing down and hiding and running and it snowballed into now. I'm so lost, I'm absolutely just

depraved and all these addictions that I can you know get over for some time but then I who I am inside is is off and lost and it was just it wasn't it wasn't good and but I kept telling myself it was good and I kept being told you just have to get to the next grade you just have to keep going this is just you know at first it's hard but push through and really playing on my pride of

I don't want to quit now. Like, I don't want to be weak. This is, everyone experiences this at first, but by God's grace, and I truly mean that, I had no peace throughout my life. There wasn't one point in my life that I had true peace and God used that to, to reveal to me that something was terribly wrong and that I needed, I really needed a savior and that I would never be that savior.

Kevin Wilson (45:34.238)
Hmm. Did anybody while you were going through this, did anybody like, and I don't know, like with your jobs or with anything, did anybody like say anything to you that was a Christian or try to reach out to you? Or did they not? Did they pick up on this? Did they know like that kind of thing at all?

Jac Marino Chen (45:53.677)
Hmm.

I would say that I knew very few true Krish, like born again believers.

And I don't even know if there are any that were actually in my in my life day to day But I did have a grandpa come visit who I hadn't seen in a while and he sat Me down with someone else and was saying what is your relationship with God like I want to know and I was so prideful and so excited to say you know I've been reading the Bhagavad Gita and the Quran and named all these books and also this and this and I've never been so close to God and he just looked at me so soberly and said Jesus

Kevin Wilson (46:02.387)
Mm.

Kevin Wilson (46:08.689)
Mmm.

Jac Marino Chen (46:32.186)
This is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except through Him. And I was shaking. I was so mad, but it pierced me. God's word truly judged the thoughts and intentions of my heart and cut through me, and pierced through me. And I thought, I can't even believe how ignorant this man is. I'm never talking to him again. I was actually shaking.

Kevin Wilson (46:43.486)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (46:49.748)
Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (46:57.632)
But it really didn't matter what I thought because God used that to win. Then when I'd go back to the Masonic Lodge and, you know, go to these, we'd have hour and hours and hours and hours long things called conclaves where we'd spend the day doing these rituals to ascend and all these things, none of it thinking any of it is bad. That was piercing my heart that.

that Jesus is the only way, Jesus is the only way. And here I am bowing down to these Egyptian deities thinking that I'm ascending. It was, looking back now, it's terrible, terrifying to even think about, then it was even, God was using his word in my life. And then because we used Bible verses in rituals completely out of context and totally wrongly,

I started reading the Bible for myself thinking there must be power in this. I wanted some of it too. And by God's grace, I read that.

Kevin Wilson (47:49.364)
Hmm

Jac Marino Chen (47:53.886)
Satan masquerades as an angel of light. And I had always thought maybe Satan's behind this, but I don't know. And how could he be when this is light work and I'm going in, I'm shining the light of hidden knowledge and that it just pierced me. Satan is behind this. It made it so clear to me, but I was still so prideful. I thought I was so good at all these occult things that I didn't want to turn. And then I read that

Kevin Wilson (47:56.659)
Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (48:20.448)
you can tell a tree by its fruit. And that pierced me because I knew that my fruit was terrible. And I knew that the fruit of the people in the order that I was in, even though I cared about them, they were just as depraved as I was. And that was really disturbing when I would see especially the higher ups. And I just knew like they're just as lost as I am. They're just as depraved as I am. And then one night in my apartment, I remember Genesis 3.

Kevin Wilson (48:34.1)
Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (48:47.576)
that if you eat from the tree of the knowledge of good, Satan said, if you eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you'll become like God knowing good and evil and your eyes will be opened. it just, mean, just clear as day I knew beyond a shout of a doubt, Satan is behind what I'm in. That is the same lie that I'm falling for. It's not, it's the same thing that if you eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, the occult, it's duality integrated basically.

And that is what I'm doing. And it led to the fall. He was lying. And it's leading to the fall in my life. And you would think I would say, OK, that's enough. But no, I was still too prideful to turn. just thought, well, it's too late for me then. This is what I am lost. And then,

Kevin Wilson (49:20.798)
Mm-hmm. Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (49:36.646)
One night I was walking across my studio apartment and I fell to my knees. was spiritually attacked and I fell to my knees and it felt like my soul was just being sucked out of me into complete utter darkness and I had no control over it. And I heard myself cry out, Jesus Christ save me. And I meant it. And in that moment,

Kevin Wilson (49:50.569)
Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (50:04.296)
The attack stopped just like that and I knew that it was the God of the Bible, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit who had delivered me in that moment from that attack and had saved me. And I felt the peace that I'd been looking for my entire life. Peace, true peace in that moment. And I was just amazed and I was also very humbled because I realized that

Kevin Wilson (50:09.15)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (50:16.134)
Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (50:29.728)
I had flipped open the Bible many times to that sorceries and abomination. no, no, that can't be right. Or things about my sin. I realized in that moment that God, the true God, the God of the Bible, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is truly God. He is so far above all these forces of darkness that he just saved me like that. He is the only true God. And what I have been doing, if he says it's sin against him,

It's sin against him and I'm wrong and I've been rebelling against this God and so I was shaking and I got my Bible out that I had under my bed because I'd been having terrifying experiences like that. I hadn't really been reading it but it was just there.

and I started reading it and I was hungry and at first I still thought that I had the secret knowledge and I went into it with pride but it really, God still used his word that for the first time all these other new age and occult and secret texts that I'd read had just left me hungrier and hungrier and emptier and emptier.

and God's word truly fed me. I was satisfied. I recognized it as truth. And I just started reading it like, you know, daily reading, reading, wanting to take it all in. And I didn't fully understand it all at first. I started in Genesis, went all the way to Revelation, but God used me reading his word to convict me of sin that, wow, what I've been doing is wrong. God is, this is the truth.

Kevin Wilson (51:52.126)
Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (51:53.472)
And yeah, and so that's how I realized that what I was in was disguised as light, but it was pure and utter satanic darkness.

Kevin Wilson (52:02.918)
Hmm. So you you actually saw the light, the real light by so first it was reading, reading the word. Right. And the word just literally started changing you as you read it. And then you had this encounter, you know, this kind of demonic encounter, you know, and just crying out to Jesus, which we see many times in scripture when people do that. Right. Jesus.

Jesus shows up. so, so, and so this is how you know, this is how you were saved. mean, you that's pretty much your encounter with Christ. That is.

Jac Marino Chen (52:42.848)
Yes. Yeah.

So I believe I was truly saved then because there had also been times where, you know, I'd been driving and at one time specifically a sermon was on the radio and I didn't recognize it was a sermon so I didn't turn it off and something I was like, this is true, what is this? And then I realized it was a Christian sermon and I was kind of confused but God had been faithfully planting those seeds of the gospel, you know, the small amount that I knew about the gospel from before.

and then reading his word. And from that moment, when I called on Jesus and he delivered me from that attack, but I truly believe he saved me from that moment on, he continued the work that he started in me and sanctified me, revealed sin to me and really convicted me until I turned from it.

Kevin Wilson (53:33.16)
Hmm. Well, that's wow. Do you you how do you feel that like how did you find a church? Because this is my this is the interesting thing because I mean having all of that, you know, and you being saved and all of that, like I always this is always a fascinating question to me. Like how did you find the right church?

Jac Marino Chen (53:48.046)
Hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (53:58.434)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (54:02.268)
Right. Like, and because there's just so much, I you go into Christianity and it's just like, my God, it's like a smorgasbord of whatever. But it's really hard to find biblically sound teachers and churches like that are being faithful and fruitful to God's word. Truly. So like, how did that even take place?

Jac Marino Chen (54:03.357)
Right. yeah.

Jac Marino Chen (54:28.022)
Yeah, well, you're absolutely right. So it's truly tragic and something that I had a really hard time understanding when I was first saved, but truly just by God's grace. I that time that I had been listening to the radio and I heard that sermon that

I later found out was a Christian sermon. remember that pastor's name. And so at first I just thought all churches were the same. And there was a Methodist church in Hollywood and it was right down the street from me. So I went there and I was terrified. And it was such a big deal for me to work up the courage, you know, to go to church. And I went.

And it was a female, I don't know if they call themselves pastors or priests there, but I don't even remember if she opened the Bible at all. And all that she talked about was how they were going to infiltrate and get LBGTQ.

writes into the Methodist Church and do this and do this. And at the time I was as progressive as they come, but I still was so confused because I left and I was so dejected and sad because I was like, is this what Christianity is? Like, I'm so hungry and that's it. That's all I get. you know, I was so sad, but praise God. He is so kind and he continued to shepherd and lead me.

Kevin Wilson (55:21.417)
Mm.

Kevin Wilson (55:28.66)
Mm-hmm

Kevin Wilson (55:36.893)
Mm-hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (55:47.852)
I remembered that pastor that I'd heard on the radio and that it was solid and that it fed me. And so I found out he was in either San Luis Obispo or San Clemente, which was significantly not close to Hollywood, but I thought, whatever, I'll do the hour, hour and a half drive to that church. And so I started doing that. And one day when I drove down there, he preached a sermon and it felt like he was talking right to me. And he basically said, if anyone's coming here,

I'm totally, this isn't exactly what he said, but to the effect of if anyone's coming here and idolizing me, the preacher, it's not about me. You just need to find a solid church basically. And that really convicted me. And so I found a church connected to that church in Hollywood that just truly by God's grace ended up being a solid church plant where the pastor went through, you know, the Bible chapter by chapter and his, him and his wife sat with me and would.

Kevin Wilson (56:24.686)
Mm. Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (56:43.97)
Walk with me through doctrine and they were so patient with me and my pride and they god used them so much to share the gospel with me to really truly understand the holiness of god the reality of my sin the just punishment for sin being a very real place called hell That is an eternal torment. That wasn't something that I could wrap my head around that was so foreign to me It was truly god's grace and their persistent opening the bible with me that helped me truly grasp Yes, god is holy and hell is the just

Kevin Wilson (56:59.922)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (57:05.085)
Hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (57:13.534)
just punishment for sin, and that the only way to be reconciled to God is by Christ's perfect substitutionary atonement that he went to the cross, that he bore my sin and God's wrath that I deserved in my place on the cross, and that he truly died, truly was buried three days and truly rose again on the third day and truly ascended to the right hand of God as the one and only mediator between God and man. But if you repent of your sin and put your faith in Jesus Christ alone for your salvation, not myself,

not my good works, not any other religious system or work or anything, but Jesus Christ and his perfect work and life, death and resurrection alone, I could have eternal life. For them to patiently show me that in scripture and open the Bible with me and love me with truth, God used that so much to the point that while I started going to that church, it took me a while as I was reading through the word, as I was sitting under the preaching of God's word for me to finally get to the point.

because I still thought I could be in the golden dawn and be a Christian. took, I was hanging on to that last thing, that in astrology, and I would go a lot less, but you're told you can never leave. So I didn't even, there's a lot going on in my mind. So it took me a while, but finally by God's grace, I got to the point that I was just so convicted that I'm called to deny myself, take up my cross and follow Jesus Christ. There's no,

Kevin Wilson (58:15.646)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (58:25.374)
Hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (58:39.628)
I don't get to keep any of my old self. I'm counted all as rubbish compared to the surpassing worth of knowing Christ. Like I must follow Jesus. And so it was at that point that I truly by God's grace and he really used that church. I repented of that, was baptized. And from that point is when I really ran after Jesus and took the reality that I couldn't keep any of my sin. Like not even, I couldn't justify any occult practice or new age practice.

I had to turn from it all, let it all go and follow Christ.

Kevin Wilson (59:11.86)
Mm.

How, while we're just on the subject of churches, how has the church, how have they embraced New Age and the occult? And I say this because, you know, and I did a whole series on the prosperity gospel and, you know, that whole thing, you know, a lot of stuff that Joel Osteen preaches and

Jac Marino Chen (59:16.718)
Mm-hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (59:24.844)
Hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (59:36.652)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (59:42.802)
You know that, you know, your words have power and they, you know, they kind of use that, that scripture says life and death are in a park or life and death are in the power of the tongue, you know, and that scripture is not talking about like actually bringing things into existence or they'll use this scripture that says, you know, we can call those things that be not as though they were, but the scripture actually says God who calls those things is not as though they were in.

Jac Marino Chen (59:52.44)
Yeah.

Jac Marino Chen (01:00:08.428)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:00:12.744)
I'm Jack, like I, if there's any passion issue that I have, and that I could just preach the gospel on for the rest of my life, I think it would be that one. Because I feel like that that is like where the enemy is so deceptive with our churches and it's so widespread and it

Jac Marino Chen (01:00:26.913)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:00:41.852)
I just, it literally causes my heart to ache because I go, this is not the gospel. So, and I know, so I'm asking you and then I'm giving my whole thing, but I'm not trying to, yeah. But with that said, what are you, what are some areas and ways that you've seen that the enemy has creeped in with this occult new age stuff in our churches?

Jac Marino Chen (01:01:00.205)
Yeah.

Jac Marino Chen (01:01:11.188)
Yeah, well you make great points. I completely agree with you. I was thinking something else I'll get to, but I just want to hit on the prosperity gospel. Well, I'll just say when I became truly a Christian and it was my first time really getting in the church world, I was so confused because I saw so much new age and occultism in the church, not like in ways that people didn't know. And a lot of it was that prosperity gospel and it's

feeds on that same thing. can be your own God. You can make your own will be done. It's not about at the end of the day, we're not thinking about Jesus who denied himself and lived this life, this perfect life, you know, but, let me use the power to get what I want and maybe not manifest, but you know, I'm, I'm claiming my dream car. I'm claiming my dream relationship. I'm claiming, but you're looking.

It's you centered again, and that is very new age that you're making your will be done. Alistair Crowley, his saying was do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Just the satanic thing that basically do what you will. And that is the heart behind a lot of this prosperity gospel is I want this I'm claiming it, it's mine, I named it and that even goes into the law of attraction. And they'll even be pushed back about vision boards that people want to make vision boards to pray to claim these things.

Kevin Wilson (01:02:17.31)
Mm.

Kevin Wilson (01:02:25.854)
Mm-hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (01:02:33.048)
taking more Bible verses out of context, like the verse that says, you know, write this vision down. But my husband was just going through Hosea and he's like, how do they even take this out of this? But just trying to make excuses for things because it sounds good. It sounds empowering. It sounds exciting that you can, you can have the life that you want and you can all these things rather than submitting to God. You are making yourself the one in power. And ultimately at the end of the day, your own God, which is

Kevin Wilson (01:02:38.868)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:02:43.24)
Ha ha!

Jac Marino Chen (01:03:02.892)
the same thing. So I totally affirm that and I see that and it's very upsetting and very heartbreaking. And then, but one thing that really stood out to me was, in the golden dawn in the Masonic lodge, a lot of the rituals involved, one in particular where we were encouraged to, in order to invoke the deity or yeah, they would have said the deity Thoth, the one that I believed I was falling, which is truly a demon.

we were to laugh uncontrollably, start acting like animals, rolling around on the floor, losing control, laugh hysterically, and really this, you know, bringing up these feelings of just going crazy, basically hysterical sounds, laughing noises, but calling that holiness, saying that we're bringing the spirit in. And so when I saw similar things of, you know, to the nth degree where I don't see that in the Bible, but

Kevin Wilson (01:03:46.385)
Hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (01:04:03.34)
I've seen that in the occult. That was really disturbing for me because again, I'm reading the Bible for myself for the first time and I'm saying, I don't see this, but I have seen this. And so that was disturbing for me. And then just ways that, you know, I think of holy yoga or just ways that people try to maybe, and I truly, my heart goes out to people who just have never been in the new age. They just don't know and it sounds good and it's in the culture. So maybe you're trying to.

who knows, but trying to integrate New Age practices, Eastern practices, and then Christianize them can be very dangerous because at the end of the day, you're taking something that is not Christian, that we don't find in the Bible, that is not necessary, but that is actually the origins are not, that they're opposed to Christ and bringing them into the church. And that's very disturbing.

Kevin Wilson (01:04:56.552)
to what do you feel? So and I'm just I'm asking you some practical things here. So what do you feel about things like guided meditation? I mean, we hear a lot about that. Also yoga. mean, that's one of the things that I think that people they really struggle. I mean, really struggle with because they say, well, but if I'm not, you know, do it, you know, contorting, you know, contorting my body in a way that is

Jac Marino Chen (01:05:01.141)
Yeah.

Jac Marino Chen (01:05:05.175)
Hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (01:05:09.846)
Mm-hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (01:05:15.0)
Yeah.

Kevin Wilson (01:05:26.398)
for this deity or for this other thing, then can't I just do it? Because Paul said if, and I'm playing the devil's advocate here, okay, so don't, you know, but they'll say things like, well, Paul said, you know, if, I eat meat that sacrifice to idols, but I do it praising God, well, then doesn't, am I okay with doing this yoga or this guided meditation and all of that?

Jac Marino Chen (01:05:36.718)
Totally.

Jac Marino Chen (01:05:49.57)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:05:52.148)
What would you say? Because you're a person and this is, this is why this is important because you've been there. You've been in the occult. You've been in the new age. like, you know, bet like, you know better. like, what would you say to that?

Jac Marino Chen (01:06:01.336)
Yeah. Yeah.

Jac Marino Chen (01:06:06.688)
Yeah, yeah. Well, one, I'd say I feel for you in the sense that I get that it can be hard in this culture. It can be hard and it can even be confusing sometimes trying to figure out what is okay, what is not okay. And yoga too was hard for me to let go of and really understand. I tried doing Christian yoga and things like that at first, but 1 Corinthians 6 verses 19 to 20 come to mind, which in

is ultimately talking about sexual immorality, but it still applies. Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own. You were bought with the price. So glorify God in your body. And yes, yoga, mean, people who are in the world of Hinduism would, most of them would agree that yoga is primarily a spiritual practice. know, the poses that you're doing are going into those poses

Kevin Wilson (01:06:40.552)
Hmm. Hmm.

Hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (01:07:00.4)
that go back to those gods. But at the end of the day, there's a difference between stretching and yoga, but yoga too, so much of it, you're put in this trance-like state through doing these things. And at the end of the day, our body is a temple of the Holy Spirit as Christians and we are not our own. so,

I also think of we don't want to cause other people to stumble by going to yoga and at yoga studios most of the time. They're bringing in that Eastern mysticism and namaste and the trance-like music and the crystals, maybe the sage. And that can really cause people to stumble. Many people that we talk to who were saved out of the new age got into the new age by going to a yoga studio or starting to do.

Kevin Wilson (01:07:30.984)
Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (01:07:46.636)
yoga. in that sense too, but there are things that they might sound good and they might be nice for our body, but where can we

truly deny ourselves and follow Christ and not be like the world and having come out of that world where yoga is so intricately united in occultism, I Kundalini yoga, awakening the serpent, it's really not something that you wanna mess with. It is vile and the tantra yoga, it's sexual immorality. then the other, just, when you get to the core of what it is, it's not something that I would ever encourage someone

Kevin Wilson (01:08:13.352)
Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (01:08:24.962)
one to do, but Pilates, stretching, there's so many other options that you can do to be in good shape and to stretch and to get the same thing, but you aren't going into the spiritual practice of yoga. So I would recommend.

you know, the alternatives that that accomplish, if you say you want to do it because you like stretching and you like the exercise, there are other options that accomplish that. And I would encourage you that way. And so I don't want to speak to whether or not it's a sin, but I would encourage you as someone who came out of that world to, to do something else and to stay away from it. And then, yeah, because that's very upsetting. And then what is the other?

Kevin Wilson (01:09:01.404)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:09:08.872)
guided meditation.

Jac Marino Chen (01:09:10.401)
I honestly didn't know that that was in the church. That's upsetting getting your mind into a trance like state. whether it's the, you know, that trance music, whether it's the

I think about too the different prayers that it just sounds New Age-y for lack of better words, but it gets you relax your body, listen to this sound. That's not a Christian thing that's still drawing from New Age, drawing from Eastern mysticism. And you don't want to empty your mind and you don't want to get into a trance.

You want to have your mind full of truth and in those states many times your mind when it's empty can be implanted with lies and it's just not something that we want to be messing with or drawing on. So I would definitely caution away from listening to guided meditations, even ones that call themselves Christian, because trying to get to the core of why are you doing this or why are you listening to it and what do you think it will accomplish for you

And what are ways that aren't that spirituality, Eastern mysticism, ways that you can accomplish the same thing? I hope that applies because I haven't heard personally, I haven't been in a world where they've been Christian guided meditations, but I am familiar with those Christian apps like Abide and Dwell that my sister Dorian Virtue has done a video on that kind of addresses these things as well.

Kevin Wilson (01:10:23.56)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:10:40.956)
Yeah. Yeah, I just you know, I think there's just this desire to Christianize it all. And I I remember there there was a very well, very well known church in California, very well known pastor who when asked about their practices and what they do because their music is criticized because people, know, people say this trance music and different things like that. And

Jac Marino Chen (01:10:48.78)
Hmm, yeah.

Jac Marino Chen (01:11:06.007)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:11:11.176)
One of the things that their pastor said was, well, you know, these things that we're doing like so like tarot cards and some of these other like, you know, you know, seeing things, you know, all of these things, he said, well, but that the devil stole that from the church. So this is why we do that. Like he's like, it's it's not that those things are wrong.

It's that the devil stole those from the church. So we're just taking it back when they are accused of, hey, this is a little bit too new ageing out. Like you're starting to get into like the new age and the occult. go, no, no, no, no, no. Well, it was ours first. All we're doing is just taking it back. And it's like, you know what I mean? Like there's.

Jac Marino Chen (01:11:53.614)
Hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (01:12:05.474)
Yeah.

Kevin Wilson (01:12:06.696)
I feel like there's so many ways that the enemy is trying to twist what's going on to make it look like, like we should be going into these things, right? Whether it's the name of their claimant or decreeing and clearing, know, manifesting it's like, well, but that's not new age. That's not new age. Well, that we're taking it back from the enemy. And it's like,

Jac Marino Chen (01:12:15.388)
yeah.

Jac Marino Chen (01:12:24.717)
Yeah.

Jac Marino Chen (01:12:33.378)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:12:34.782)
No, like, you know what mean? Like there's this it's.

Jac Marino Chen (01:12:37.142)
Yeah. Yes. No, you're absolutely right. And I think, mean, I think the verse about the Bible, your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path. If the Bible is not authoritative or inspired or sufficient. Sure. I mean, why not bring in everything? Why stop at the tarot cards? Why not get into bringing ritual magic to church? Maybe they took away the ritual magic too. Like if the Bible's not our authority, then

You know, you can almost make a case for anything, but praise the Lord that we have the Bible and we can look to God's word and say, do we find these things in scripture? Is this wise? Is it wise to not be sober minded, but be in a trance like state, repeat lyrics over and over and over and over and over again until you get to this place where you're super emotional and you're not sober minded at the end of the day and you're open more to who knows what.

Is that biblical? Is that the biblical way that we do things? We can compare things to scripture. For example, the name it and claim it. Is that biblical? Was that really taken from Christianity and given to the new age? No, that's not in the Bible unless you take verses out of context as though they're a fortune cookie and make them say whatever you want to say. But praise God, we have context that the Bible, God gave it to us in a way that we can understand it. So I...

I just, see that so much and I see that so much in the, when I was in the occult where, no, this is Christian, no, this is biblical because verses are taken out of context to justify the practice. Well, what's the difference when the church says, no, you know, the occult just stole this, this is biblical. And then it's just some random passage that doesn't even mean that out of context to justify it. So all that to say,

I'm so thankful that we have the word of God to compare the practices that are being brought into the church. Like, even when I was first saved and I saw the hysteria and I heard about back in the day there were people wearing diapers to church because they were losing control of their bodies and it was seen as the Holy Spirit. Like, is that in scripture? No. But similar things happen in the occult. So I don't think that that is a biblical thing because it's not in the Bible. And I'm thankful. I'm thankful that we have the Bible because

Jac Marino Chen (01:15:00.046)
people will say, I don't need the Bible, I have Jesus. Well, we actually know who Jesus truly is because of the inspired and errant word of God where God reveals himself to us in it. So we actually need the Bible and we need to look to the Bible to figure out if what we're seeing in the church is biblical. And I love how you've described your own podcast as being biblical, as being sound in the Bible. And that's so important because in this day and age where anyone anywhere, including me,

in the Freemason Lodge can call themselves a Christian, but I know that I wasn't because I can compare my life then to the Bible and see I was clearly not a Christian.

Kevin Wilson (01:15:38.492)
Yeah, yeah. And just our last couple of minutes here, I want to ask you, what would you say to younger people who, you know, I mean, there's there's a lot of stuff out there. I think about young adult novels. think about TV shows. I think about social media and, know, books that people read a lot of times is like occultish. It's new ageish. They don't really even understand it.

Jac Marino Chen (01:15:50.926)
Hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (01:16:04.523)
here.

Kevin Wilson (01:16:05.98)
romance novels and things that, it's, you know, because the enemy has used sex and love and, you know, and all of these romance and really have perverted things to make it look like you're being like, it's like it's true love with these books and TV shows and stuff like that. What would you say to younger people out there who, and even young adults?

who may be getting into some of this stuff in with media. Like, what would you say to them?

Jac Marino Chen (01:16:39.084)
Hmm. Yeah, well, I think.

As you're saying that of the lust of the eyes the lust of the flesh and the boastful pride of life These are these are things in the world that are going to pass away with the world and they were not to love the world or the things in the world And so if if these things I mean it might feel good It might be exciting to escape yourself and go into this fantasy world and feed again the lust of the eyes and the lust of the flesh and the boastful pride of life But really asking yourself your motives. Why are you reading this? And if you're going into these fantasy worlds to escape reality

escapism is dangerous. We don't want to escape reality. We've been placed here by God, ordained to be here at this time by God, to be stewards of his grace, be witnesses of who Christ is, to share the gospel, to praise God we get to be sanctified and made more Christ-like. We get to serve in the local church and be part of the body. Like the reality of being a Christian is beautiful and when we're distracted by fantasy, I mean

Kevin Wilson (01:17:33.448)
Yes.

Jac Marino Chen (01:17:41.748)
thinking specifically of the occult kind of fantasy where you're going to these fantasy worlds and it's very, I mean, it draws on the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh and the boastful pride of life. It's exciting to imagine that you can go into this fantasy world and be this powerful thing and there's that draw, but does that draw honor the Lord? And is it directing you to do things that honor the Lord and live a life that is, for lack of better words, sold out for Jesus Christ where your entire life, like we want to live for Christ.

We're going to stand before God one day and as Christians standing before the Bema seat, we want to hear, well done good and faithful servant. We want eternal rewards. This world is passing away. All these things are thus to be dissolved. What sort of people are we to be in lives of holiness and godliness? So I'd encourage you, it is an exciting and beautiful and wonderful thing to be a Christian. So don't get distracted and escape yourself and run from things if you're.

My husband says this a lot and it's helpful for me if you're going to run, run to Christ and live a life that is truly glorifying to him because there's nothing better than truly abiding in Christ and living a life to glorify him. Like there's nothing better than that and no fantasy book will ever give you anything close. So instead of feeding the flesh and whatever those desires are, and I don't wanna say all fantasy books are bad, but just to be wise and to be

Kevin Wilson (01:18:42.6)
Mm.

Kevin Wilson (01:18:54.345)
Yeah.

Jac Marino Chen (01:19:07.022)
Cautious if you are going to the extreme of getting lost in fantasy worlds or starting to be drawn to supernaturalism or occultism or these, you know gnomes fairies this mystical Identification with these things just be wise that that we aren't being distracted from living for Christ So I don't want to say it's a sin to read any fantasy book But if that is becoming your identity in your life and you're more focused on escaping reality than living for Christ Then that that is a problem

Kevin Wilson (01:19:34.864)
Yeah. Last question. Parents are they talk about a lot of times, you know, in Christendom, there's like, well, you know, we think about Harry Potter, stuff like that. Right. Do you feel like that these things are gateways into the occult or do you look at it as just, you know, like how how would you look at something like that?

Jac Marino Chen (01:19:45.719)
Hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (01:19:57.336)
Hmm. Yeah, I personally...

Really don't like books that glorify or glamorize things that God says are an abomination and a sin and especially things that I lived in and I know people who are still in and are headed to hell because they're they identify as sorcerers and they're doing sorcery or or Wizards and they're practicing wizardry or witches and they're practicing witches like these are real sins that really send real people to hell and really destroy real lives and would have sent me to hell if it wasn't for Jesus Christ

saving me and actually really hurt my life and I still deal with the effects of some of that. Like these are serious things they're not no matter how the book writes it to be you know this glamorous glorious character that's not the reality these are sins these are demonic things and so you know I personally didn't read Harry Potter growing up but I know people who say

Kevin Wilson (01:20:33.918)
Mm.

Jac Marino Chen (01:20:57.078)
you know, they're Christian parents and they'll walk through it with their child.

saying why this is unbiblical or why this doesn't align with scripture. My husband and I personally, our personal conviction is that if we were to have kids, Lord willing, we would not have them read that because we feel strongly that having a glorified wizard doesn't honor God or isn't a good thing to teach knowing that people who identify as wizards and really practice sorcery exist.

But I would say if you are a parent and you don't have that same conviction, be aware that sorcery is a real demonic practice that real people practice and it is very evil. And so make sure that your child knows the word of God and that these practices are evil, that they're not fun, that they're not something to pine after or glorify.

Kevin Wilson (01:21:57.31)
Mm-hmm.

Jac Marino Chen (01:22:01.254)
So when it comes to media, even movies, even stuff like that, I do believe in personal conviction and there is Christian liberty, but I solemnly warn that these are very real sins. Evil things, wicked things happen behind closed doors and to equip your children with the word of God to know what is true biblically and not to be swept up in how the world does glamorize and glorify.

magic and sorcery and sins like that.

Kevin Wilson (01:22:32.872)
Yeah. Yeah, that's beautiful. That's beautiful. Jack, I am so grateful that you came on and I'm so grateful that our listeners get to hear the mercy, the love, the grace of God, because through all of the darkness that that we've we've talked about and heard and you've had to go through the light shine so much more brighter than that darkness. And because of

Jac Marino Chen (01:23:00.078)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:23:02.162)
that light and you've chosen to, you've chosen to surrender to that light. So many other people are going to have the same thing happen to them. And so I just, I want to say to you, thank you. And I know, I know, I know it's Jesus, but in every decision we play a part. And I'm just so grateful that you said yes to Jesus.

You know, and that you're using your story to help other people out of the darkness. That is what we're called to do. And I pray that God blesses your ministry. I pray that God gives you favor. I pray that God gets you into places where maybe other people haven't been able to go. And however that that looks right, whether it's through your podcast, whether it's through

any other, you know, appearances that you do. I just pray that God because the devil doesn't like you and you know that. folks, I would encourage you to pray for Jack. Right. These even doing these these appearances, it's not easy. This is, you know, mentally and emotionally sometimes these things are not because she's a real person who went through real things.

Jac Marino Chen (01:24:15.534)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:24:30.13)
So I don't think we need to assume just because now, you know, she's following Christ, that everything is just perfect, right? And she doesn't deal with things. So if you're in my audience, I ask for you and I implore you to pray for her, pray for her husband, pray for their ministry and their desire to help other people come out of this. And if you want.

to learn more about Jack, it's JackMarino.com and it's G A or excuse me, it's J. I'm looking right at it saying G J A C and then it's Marine, Marina. It's A R I N O Chen. So it's Jack Marino Chen and it's JackMarino.com and go there. Look at a lot of the things that she has there. The resources.

go listen to her podcast, share it with other people. and, I am grateful for all of you being here with us again this week and, until next time we love you. God bless you and, we'll see you next time.