{Ep.122} A Muslim's Conversion From Allah To Jesus With Dr. Faisal Malick

“Discover an inspiring journey of faith as we delve into the gripping testimony of Dr. Faisal Malick, a former Muslim who embraced Christianity. Join us as he shares his emotional and powerful encounter with Jesus, unveiling supernatural occurrences that transformed his life. Gain profound insights into Islam, Muslim culture, and the challenges of transitioning to Christianity within a Muslim family. This compelling conversation promises to uplift and enlighten, encouraging listeners to receive its message with an open heart.”

Learn more about Dr. Malick
https://www.faisalmalick.com/

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Transcript

Kevin Wilson (00:01.105)
Welcome back to the thinking out loud podcast. My name is Kevin Wilson and I am excited to be here again with you for another week of the show. And so, uh, one of the things that we talked about this year, that this year was going to be a year that we were going to, uh, have

guests on that were going to inspire you, that was going to spur on your faith, and that was going to cause you to just be excited about what God is doing in the earth right now. And so I'm excited for this particular guest that we have today. It's been a while. It's been a few months, maybe close to a year.

that I've been thinking about having this type of conversation on this show. And I really believe that now is the time to have that conversation. And so, uh, we are so fortunate to have our guests today. His name is Dr. Uh, Fassel Malik. He is the lead pastor of covenant of life ministries, a multi-campus church in British Columbia. He is the author of nine.

He's also a keynote speaker and an entrepreneur. You can find out more about him if you go to covenantoflife.org and also fasso malloc.org. He is and that his name is spelled F. Yes.

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:27.49)
Actually, Kevin, sorry, it's actually fastlmelloc.com. So if you wanna redo that, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Okay, thanks.

Kevin Wilson (01:31.693)
Fassal Malik. Okay. Yep, that's fine. My producer take it out. Yep. FassalMalik.com. If you go to that website, you will learn more about him and also covenantoflife.org. This is the church that he is lead pastor and Dr. Malik joins us now. Dr. Malik, thanks for being on the Thinking Out Loud podcast.

Dr. Faisal Malick (02:00.214)
Yeah, it's such an honor, Kevin, to be here with you today.

Kevin Wilson (02:03.265)
Yeah, absolutely. And so one of the things that I was telling Dr. Malik before we got on the air is, you know, this is really important to me because where I sit right now, we're about 20 minutes outside of the largest Muslim population outside of the Middle East, which is Dearborn, Michigan.

And so we have a wonderful, wonderful people. I spent some time at a former job, spent quite a few years ago, uh, in East Dearborn, where, where it is very densely populated with Muslims. We've got a huge mosque there. Uh, some of the most beautiful, nicest, most kind people I have ever met in my life.

Dr. Faisal Malick (02:55.735)
Mm. Yeah.

Kevin Wilson (02:56.313)
Uh, I would, I was going into some of their stores and I had my daughter with me a few times and, uh, and it was funny because while I was working, they would say, Hey, you know, you should let your daughter come back in the back room. We've got this food and you know, is she okay? Does she need water? Does she need, you know, it's just, just beautiful people. And, uh, and so it was a, just an awesome experience. And so, uh, these are people who

Dr. Faisal Malick (03:14.116)
Yeah.

Kevin Wilson (03:24.905)
You know, they're made in the image of God and these are people who need to know the real God. And the one of the books that he wrote is God confronted me, my journey from Islam to Christianity. And so I want to jump right in, doctor. Talk to us a little bit about your family, your growing up, your upbringing, all of that. Talk to us a little bit about that.

Dr. Faisal Malick (03:52.522)
Yeah, yeah. Well, Kevin, first of all, I like what you said about Muslims. They're very hospitable people and they love to welcome people like they did your daughter there, you know, and I come from a good family. I was born in Pakistan. My dad's an attorney, a well-known attorney with a very large law firm and international law firm. And so I grew up with some good values at home, you know, respect your elders, want to make your family proud, that kind of thing. And as a teenager, I moved here to the United States of America and then eventually to Canada.

Kevin Wilson (03:58.678)
Yes.

Dr. Faisal Malick (04:22.474)
And I wanted to kind of make my family proud. But I grew up with a lot of a Muslim heritage. I would study the Quran, maybe three, four hours a day. I would go to a special school. You pray five times a day as a Muslim. It's part of the practice. And I was a Sunni Muslim. And that's about 85% of the Muslim population in the world would call themselves Sunni Muslims. And so that's a little bit of my upbringing. Of course, as a Muslim, you believe in Muhammad as the final and last messenger of Allah.

and that you believe many other prophets were sent from God, including Jesus. So I revered Jesus as a prophet. However, I considered the Bible inaccurate and that the Christians had changed the Bible, the original manuscripts in some way. And so that was the discrepancy. And as a Muslim, I believe that Jesus was not crucified on the cross. And the biggest issue for Muslims around the world, and for me as well growing up as a Muslim, is that Jesus is not

the son of God. That is the number one sin you could commit as a Muslim is to confess Jesus as the son of God. That's like blasphemy. And so that's kind of the mindset of every Muslim around the world. You grow up with the Muslim culture. It's not just something you believe. It's your entire life. Your entire life has to be based out of your faith and what you believe. And so that's kind of the upbringing. You grow up, you hear the azaan, which is the call to prayer five times a day publicly if you're in a Muslim country.

And that's just the way it is. When I was a little baby, my uncle would have prayed that azzan into my ear, and we do that for all the children growing up, and that's how you grow up. It's a very important part of who you are and what your life is.

Kevin Wilson (06:04.493)
Hmm. Yeah. And that's interesting. I have a question about something because I hear like Sunni versus Shiite Muslims. What's the difference? What's the. Yeah.

Dr. Faisal Malick (06:17.08)
Mm-hmm. So the Shiite Muslims represent 10% of the Muslim population. And so they kind of add one other member to their statement of faith, and that is Ali. And so they add him after Muhammad. And so there's some minor differences in their belief systems. There's a month, once a year called maharam, where they actually, they're the ones that you see on video that beat themselves for their sin in a form of evoking.

Kevin Wilson (06:40.404)
Mmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (06:43.138)
Some form of you know pain upon themselves. They do that. That's the more the Shiite Muslims most of them We'll find in Iran for example the in ancient Persia For example is where you'll find the Shiite Muslims a lot. So so that's where they come from they come from actually Abraham and Kutura had children and amongst their children, you know, you have people that are from Sheba Midian all those people are where the Shiite Muslims actually descend from

Kevin Wilson (07:11.133)
Interesting. Wow. That's really interesting. And one of the other things that you said that I thought was really interesting is how much that your faith was ingrained in you as a small child. So, you know, I think about the evangelical world in the American, especially American culture, you know, we almost we almost don't, you know, really give our kids at a very early age.

Dr. Faisal Malick (07:23.827)
Yes.

Kevin Wilson (07:38.425)
Christ because we say, well, but they're not going to understand or they're not going to, you know, absorb it. And they really care about toys. They don't really care about these things, but it's really something because, you know, if you read in the scriptures, scripture says, hey, talk to him when they when they lie down, talk to him when they rise up, when they go by the way, like all of these different things. The Bible says and it seems like that the Muslim faith, they're actually doing that.

Dr. Faisal Malick (07:53.718)
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Faisal Malick (07:58.379)
Yeah.

Dr. Faisal Malick (08:04.882)
Oh yeah.

Kevin Wilson (08:05.785)
as opposed to sometimes us as evangelical Christians, we can get a little bit lax on things like that and think it's overbearing.

Dr. Faisal Malick (08:12.854)
Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, and meanwhile, you know, they're training their children to take over the world, right? They're raising their kids to be in the court system, the education system, and government, and politics, and business, economy, banking. Like they really believe in doing that around the world. And oftentimes, sometimes, you know, the church may not be thinking that way. You know, we're just trying to get out of here, so to speak, you know? And God's like, we got some work to do here still before we go anywhere.

Kevin Wilson (08:19.708)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (08:36.47)
Right.

Right, right. So true, so true. And so as a kid, so you grew up for a portion of time in Pakistan. But then there was a time that your parents, they moved to Canada. Tell me a little bit about that.

Dr. Faisal Malick (08:58.91)
Yeah. And so really my dad and my mom, when they went on their honeymoon, they did a world tour for three months around the world. And so my mom really liked Niagara Falls, which is just a little bit close to Toronto, that area, Ontario there. And so my mom said, I really love this area. So my dad said, hey, then why don't we just move here? And so they went through the immigration. By the time that happened, I was born in Pakistan. So it was really only a year old that I moved here to Canada with my parents.

Kevin Wilson (09:12.237)
Yeah.

Dr. Faisal Malick (09:27.466)
But then my dad died when I was seven years old. And so then my mom took me and my two sisters as a family, we moved back to Pakistan. And the intention was, you know, to preserve me from the North American culture because they were concerned that this culture might corrupt me, so to speak. And they wanted to make sure that I grow up with proper Islamic roots and understanding and thinking and so forth. And that's why from the age of seven till about, you know, 17, I kind of on my 17th birthday,

Kevin Wilson (09:30.549)
Mm.

Kevin Wilson (09:40.898)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (09:55.746)
came back here to North America. So those crucial 10 years from seven to 17, I spent them in Pakistan. And that's where I was really ingrained even further now into my belief, into my faith as a Muslim and into the ways of living as a follower of Allah and.

Kevin Wilson (10:02.698)
Mm.

Kevin Wilson (10:15.061)
Okay. And so what did that look like? I mean, when you were in Pakistan, was this, you know, I know that you have the prayers that, you know, you would do throughout the day. Um, and you went, I'm assuming you went to, to mosque. Uh, I don't know, was it every week or what did that look like?

Dr. Faisal Malick (10:23.178)
Yeah.

Dr. Faisal Malick (10:31.666)
Yes. Yeah, generally speaking, you want to go to the mosque at least on a Friday. The Friday prayer was always a very important prayer. It was called Juma. Juma is like Friday, and there's an afternoon prayer that you do. So it's always nice to do it. You would be encouraged to go to the mosque as much as possible and do prayer with others, which is called a Jumat. When you gather with a few people, that starts to become like a mass in terms of English. That's always a good thing to pray with your brotherhood, your community. There's a fellowship there.

One of the great things about, I remember growing up as a child is once a year they would have this month called Ramadan or Ramzan and that's where Muslims would fast or encourage to fast around the world for the whole month from like sun up to sun down. But it's a very festive experience because you eat early in the morning together and then you go to the mosque every night and maybe you can break your fast there with people or you break your fast at home and then go at night and you offer some additional prayers.

and you read namaz. Namaz is a process where you pray and there's movements where you bow down to the floor and you get up and you go through this process and you recite Quranic verses in these prayers. So the thing is you're always reciting the Quran as a Muslim, even though if you don't know what it means. Nowadays you have more translations, so you could kind of look them up. But because the Quran is like an ancient Arabic type of dialect, most Muslims don't know what it says unless you read.

Kevin Wilson (11:46.452)
Mm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (11:56.97)
translation or interpretation of it. And so that was kind of like the basis of Islam. Then there's these things called hadith. Hadith is what are things that were said by the prophet. And so people have recorded things that he said and those are the words and there's thousands of these things out there that Muslims tend to believe either all of them or some of them. And sometimes there's variations and conflicts and disagreements amongst Muslim about them.

But then there's something called sunnah for Muslims. Sunnahs are things that Muhammad actually did. And if you did follow and do those things, you would get additional points with God, so to speak. Like there's a merit system in Islam. Like there's no real guarantee to go to heaven for a Muslim. And so you try to do as many good deeds as you can and hope that God would show you mercy and then you might be able to make it to heaven. So there's really no guarantee.

Kevin Wilson (12:45.378)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (12:55.574)
but there's things you can do to have a better chance, or I say, perhaps, get more air miles, so to speak, to really go to heaven kind of thing. So that's kind of how you're raised. It's a mindset of kind of like a law mindset, you know, and you try to please God and serve God. To be a Muslim means is to be a servant or to submit to God and to serve Allah. That's kind of the idea. And that's how you're raised really, your whole life, thinking that you have the absolute truth.

Kevin Wilson (13:20.672)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (13:24.638)
and you're 100% right about what you believe. And mind you, there's 2 billion Muslims around the world today. That's a huge population, right? So we fasted once a month, sorry, one month a year, and there's a major festival that takes place at the end of that month, and that's called Eid. And it's kind of a festival where everyone celebrates for three days, it is a big deal. And I remember growing up as a child, that was a lot of fun.

Kevin Wilson (13:31.521)
Wow. Yes.

Dr. Faisal Malick (13:52.422)
You know because you get to get around family and kids are celebrated and things are going on So it's kind of like, you know a fun experience So that was a main a festival they did but then there was another one And this is another Eid that follows about couple of months after the one I just mentioned and this is where they sacrifice animals Now that's interesting because they sacrificed animals or we did as Muslims in honor of what Abraham did

when God asked him to bring his son up to the altar and offer him as a sacrifice. Now, the Bible and the Torah, so the Jewish and Christian account, affirms it was Isaac that was taken up to this altar, which is on Mount Moriah, which is the Dome of the Rock, where the Dome of the Rock is today, that location. And so Muslims believe it wasn't Isaac, because the Quran says it was Ishmael. So this is where that divergence occurs between the two groups.

Kevin Wilson (14:34.658)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (14:40.257)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (14:45.102)
is that's where it starts. That's a big point of difference between Muslims and Christians. And this is the first and primary point of difference, is they believe it was Ishmael. And Muhammad, who is the prophet of Islam, is actually a direct descendant of Ishmael, Abraham's first son. And so that's why Ishmael is so revered amongst the Muslim world, and they believe that site where the Dome of the Rock is today, that Abraham would have offered Ishmael.

Kevin Wilson (15:03.938)
Hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (15:13.226)
instead of Isaac, which is the biblical account was Isaac, of course, and the Jewish account is Isaac as well. So that is one of the primary differences where this all begins to start and go a different direction for people.

Kevin Wilson (15:26.677)
Interesting. When you were in Pakistan and growing up, did you ever hear about Jesus? If not, and I don't mean from necessarily, you know, the mosque or somebody telling you from a Muslim standpoint, but did you ever? Was there any missionaries? Were there any pastors or anything that came by that made you like ever second guess your faith at all?

Dr. Faisal Malick (15:52.822)
No, there wasn't because it's technically against the law to convert people from Islam to Christianity. So it can be really problematic. But there were missionaries around because there'd be foreigners there. I didn't know what a missionary was. I never encountered them. But I heard of people like that were foreigners, good people. So they would have good reputation in the Muslim community, not knowing back then as a Muslim what they were really doing there. Just thinking they're foreigners. But looking back now,

Kevin Wilson (16:17.831)
Mmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (16:21.042)
I'm like, oh, so that was like a missionary. But I had never heard about Jesus from a Christian point of view. I only heard how Christians were deceived. They had changed the Bible and they were really mistaken about how they took Jesus a prophet that Allah sent really and turned him into a deity. And that was really the problem in my mind as a Muslim and in the mind of Muslims all over the world. And so that's my perspective coming into.

Kevin Wilson (16:23.776)
Mmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (16:50.47)
even looking at Christianity. That's how I grew up and that's what I understood and that's what most Muslims around the world would actually understand to be. So for example, the Quran does say that Jesus was born of a virgin. So I did believe that. So the Quran also calls Jesus the word of God, believe it or not. Didn't know how important that was until I learned some of the things I know today. But as a Muslim, the Quran says Jesus is the word of God. That's a pretty big deal.

Kevin Wilson (17:04.002)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (17:11.757)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (17:18.778)
And it also calls Jesus the Messiah, the anointed one, the Messiah is the Arabic way to say it. So they recognize, and that title is not given to any other prophet that's ever come, or been sent by God, so to speak, according to the Muslim understanding, but Jesus has a unique characteristic about him that he had power to do miracles and do incredible things like raise the dead. So there was always this awareness of him. And Muslims are encouraged to, it says in the Quran,

If you have any questions about your faith, then consult the other three books that came before the Quran. And those other three books make up our Bible today, the Torah, the writings that Moses provided to us, the Psalms of David, for example, and also the Gospels, what Jesus brought in essence. So they're supposed to go to those books and get answers to the questions they don't have.

Kevin Wilson (18:02.72)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (18:16.466)
And it also says have equal faith in those books. But if the books have been changed, how could God ask you to have equal faith in the books that have been changed or consult them for answers if they've been changed? So I think that's where the dilemma really comes for a Muslim today really, is like, how do we do that? How do we go follow what the Quran says? But if God is saying have equal faith in these books, and these books are not preserved, if there were supernaturally books that were given by God or came from God,

before the Quran. So the idea is that God preserves the Quran somehow, but then these other three books were not preserved. However, in the Quran, the preserved books, so to speak, he's asking us to have equal faith in these other three books and also seek them for answers to questions that we cannot find answers to in the Quran. So you see this dynamic looking back, and I'm thinking, you know, that's kind of interesting. And oftentimes Muslims, you know, when I talk to them, they've asked me questions like this.

and said, how do you really do that? And I think that's a valid question, is how do you do that? But there's a reverence in a Muslim's heart for Jesus. I always had a reverence for him. Just didn't know his true identity. See, that's where the conflict was for me really. But, and I was a peaceful Muslim. I was not a terrorist, for example. And I know there's a very small group of Muslims that use...

Kevin Wilson (19:15.926)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (19:20.107)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (19:44.306)
You know, their ideology to use Islam to forward a bad and horrible ideology of terrorism and violence and things like that. And there's a root of that also that the Bible talks about that we might go into in our conversation. But really, that's not all Muslims. That's a very small percentage of Muslims that would identify with that type of ideology that we see around the world today, which is really sad. And it really takes away from God's purpose and heart and plan for the Muslim people.

because we get caught up in all that. So we gotta deal with that issue, we gotta confront that, we gotta know what it is, but we also gotta understand, like you said in the beginning, not all Muslims are like that, and they just wanna follow God, and they're seeking God, and wanna live a life where they can exemplify their faith, in a sense. That's what a majority of Muslims would fit into.

Kevin Wilson (20:33.645)
Hmm. You know, I did not know and I've listened to a lot of apologists and I, I did not know that, and maybe I heard it before and I just don't, didn't remember about, you know, the, the Quran saying that, Hey, you know, you should, if you've got questions, you should go look at these books. So I, I'm, so I'm assuming, I'm assuming that the reason why they don't is because they are so convinced that they're the,

you know, that the way is right, what they've been taught. They're like, well, why in the world, like you're saying, why in the world would I even consult those books if what I'm being taught is right? And they kind of make that as kind of a secondary thing, and they don't really, really think of that. And that is really interesting because it seems like if they were to actually read the Gospels, because as an evangelical Christian, you know, when somebody's new or trying to figure out the Bible,

Dr. Faisal Malick (21:06.9)
Yeah.

Dr. Faisal Malick (21:14.691)
That's right.

Dr. Faisal Malick (21:29.366)
Yeah.

Kevin Wilson (21:33.145)
That's the first thing I tell them. Read the Gospels. Don't read Revelations. Don't read Genesis. Don't don't, you know, you know, read the Gospels. And the Gospels have this powerful way of just changing a person's life just by reading them. And it's almost like it's the enemy that's really blinding, you know, kind of put that stipulation there so that they'll never do that. Right. Yeah.

Dr. Faisal Malick (21:35.634)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Faisal Malick (21:52.523)
Yeah.

Dr. Faisal Malick (22:00.638)
Right, right, yeah. Yeah, it is powerful, I do agree with you, but if you don't actually read it to your point, how are you gonna know what's in there, right? And so that's the thing. But you can also hear the truth from the gospel through other people's lives, you know? Sometimes God will bring people across our path and we don't know it's the gospel, but we're experiencing a living gospel through people's lives, so to speak, and they might begin to share a truth with us that really pierces our heart and soul. And sometimes light comes in, right? The...

Kevin Wilson (22:08.224)
Right.

Kevin Wilson (22:15.53)
Yes.

Kevin Wilson (22:27.062)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (22:29.43)
the entrance of the word brings light to our heart. And so oftentimes we hear the word, I would do that. I was around business people and they would say things like walk by faith and not by sight. And I'd be like, wow, that sounds so cool. But I didn't know it was the Bible really, right? Things like that. So you can hear God's word without even knowing it's God's word.

Kevin Wilson (22:44.514)
Right.

Kevin Wilson (22:49.237)
Right, right. Yeah. You know, something that you and I was just writing this down and I was going to ask it later, but I'm just going to ask it now. You know, you talked about, you know, the Middle East and, you know, how there's a small sect of Muslims who are terrorists, right? And I truly believe that. I don't think the majority of people are terrorists. I just don't. And I understand that the media makes it, you know, superimposes it.

Dr. Faisal Malick (23:09.515)
Mm.

No, no.

Kevin Wilson (23:19.361)
because it's the media. But do you think that us as Americans, the way we've politicized it, even as Christians, and I don't know this, that's why I'm asking you, but the way we've politicized things and the way we have kind of followed this American way, are we hindering the gospel or are we, I just wonder that sometimes because sometimes we can be so,

pro-America and America first and God cares about America more than everyone else. You know what I mean? Like it could come off that way. And are we hurting our Muslim brothers and sisters by being that way? It's just the honest. I'm just, you know, I don't know.

Dr. Faisal Malick (23:50.926)
Sure.

Dr. Faisal Malick (23:55.794)
Yeah.

Dr. Faisal Malick (24:09.168)
Yeah, so it's a good question. And so here we go. Really to understand this, we have to back up a little bit, right, Kevin? We're talking about a conflict that goes back to 4,000 years in reality. And there's really two biblical roots, and I say biblical roots, to the origin of the Muslim people. That's a big statement right there.

Kevin Wilson (24:16.13)
Okay.

Kevin Wilson (24:22.443)
Yes.

Dr. Faisal Malick (24:32.214)
The Muslim people have two roots in them that we find. The first is Ishmael. So those that are the descendants of Ishmael, and if you recall, Ishmael was Abraham's first son. And even before he was actually born, Hagar left the house because of a conflict at home with Sarai, and she's out just running away. And the angel of the Lord encounters her. And what's interesting is this is the first mention in scripture of an angel of the Lord. The second thing is that

Kevin Wilson (24:41.895)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (24:59.181)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (25:00.706)
the first person to be named before birth in the entire Bible was Ishmael. That's important to take note as well. And the third thing is the first mention of a well that saved Ishmael's life has to do with Ishmael as well. And so the question we should ask ourselves is why would God name Ishmael before he was born? Because Ishmael, you know, she was pregnant, Hagar, with them, and the angel of the Lord says in Genesis 16 to her that you are pregnant with child, his name shall be called Ishmael.

Kevin Wilson (25:07.227)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (25:14.115)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (25:29.29)
and I shall make him a great nation. And his populace will be beyond your ability to count. So if you look at it today, by Muhammad being the descendant of Ishmael and so forth, the religion coming about, only 1400 and change years ago, two billion Muslims later, there's no way Hagar could have counted the two billion back then. There was no computers, there was no way. She would even know what two billion looks like. And so God was already out of his sovereignty. He saw the future, he saw today.

Kevin Wilson (25:35.616)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (25:48.117)
Right.

Kevin Wilson (25:52.266)
Right.

Dr. Faisal Malick (25:58.89)
So when we look at our current conflict and we look at political agendas, I think sometimes we gotta take a bit of a backseat and have an aerial view and look at it from God's lens. Otherwise, we're just gonna be divided between one political agenda versus another propaganda that's taking place. There's propaganda on every side. But if you really wanna look at it from God's point of view, God already knew one day there'd be two billion Muslims in the world. And he knew that he had a plan for them from way back then. So he goes ahead and names Ishmael before he's born.

Kevin Wilson (26:15.257)
Sure.

Dr. Faisal Malick (26:28.498)
And Ishmael actually means God hears. And so why would God name him God hears? Because one day he knew there'd be so many Muslim people whose cry he'd be longing to answer because he wants to hear their cry. So if you kind of fast forward to Genesis 21, you got this guy Ishmael, he's about 15, 16 years old or so. Isaac's already been born now. There's a little party going on at the house. Isaac's been weaned and Ishmael is mocking Isaac.

Kevin Wilson (26:32.597)
Mm.

Kevin Wilson (26:42.809)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (26:57.858)
So Sarah sees that she's upset and she says, that's that I want Ishmael to go. So Abraham prays to God about it because he's his father, he's concerned. And God says to him, no, listen to your wife, let your son go, I've already blessed him. He's gonna become a great nation. Basically, I'm gonna look after him. So imagine the picture that Abraham goes to his grown son, a teenager and says, hey son, you know me, I'm the friend of God, I'm a prophet of God, I know God. And don't worry, I prayed about it for the most part here.

Kevin Wilson (27:14.306)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (27:26.466)
but it's time for you to leave, and you're not gonna be in error or receive an inheritance with my other son, Isaac. But here's a bottle of water, here's some bread, and don't worry, God will take care of you, and slams the door shut on Ishmael's face and his mother, and he's kicked out of his father's house. So then Ishmael is left crying in the wilderness, wondering, who am I? Am I the son of Abraham, the patriarch, the friend of God, the prophet of God, the man of God, or am I the son of a servant, the Egyptian Hagar?

Who am I really? And then he runs out of food, runs out of water, and he's crying. And the mother looks at his condition, she can't bear to see it anymore, so she walks away, and she's crying out too. But in Genesis 21, 17, God calls out from heaven, and he says it twice that he heard the voice of the young boy, and the angel of God called on the Hagar out of heaven and said, you know, here's the well. Opened her eyes and said, look at this well.

Kevin Wilson (27:57.933)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (28:23.494)
and give him some water to drink. So that's that first mention of a well and Ishmael's life is preserved. So you have a group of people that come from that place. So then when Islam came, centuries later from that time, the descendants of Ishmael embraced Islam because Muhammad said, God is not a father and he has no son and you can be a servant of God. Well, descendants of Ishmael obviously identify with that because they're like, yeah, we know God's not a father.

because Abraham cast out his son. God could never be a father that would tell him to throw out his son like that. And so that's where the descendants of Ishmael embraced Islam out of a spirit of abandonment, rejection and fatherlessness, not knowing. And they formed an identity in Islam. So that's one group of Muslims that we get that are around the world. But there's another group, Kevin. And that other group are some of the descendants of Isa. And if you recall Isa,

Kevin Wilson (29:08.204)
Mmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (29:19.114)
was Jacob's brother, the twin brother, who was born first, remember? And if you fast forward their story a little bit, you see there was a conflict at home where Jacob tricked their father and stole the blessing that was supposed to go to the firstborn son, Esau. And Esau was very angry about this, and this is recorded in Genesis 27 and verse 40 to 42, where Esau is crying out to his father Isaac saying,

Kevin Wilson (29:21.497)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Dr. Faisal Malick (29:47.71)
He says, well, I've already given the blessing of Abraham to your brother, you tricked me, I'm sorry. He said, can you give me anything? And basically he says, hey, here's the deal in verse 40, that you shall live by the sword. And it says that Esau had hatred in his heart for Jacob for the blessing that his father blessed him with. So this hatred that you see among the Muslim world actually comes from this place 4,000 years ago where Esau wanted to kill Jacob.

which we know Jacob later became Israel through the tall tribes, and we have the nation of Israel today in our midst. Well, this is where the hatred actually came from. And it says that Esau comforted himself, or Rebecca says about Esau that he comforted himself knowing that he would one day kill Jacob. So this hatred and this murder and this violence comes from this place where Esau was jealous of the blessing that his brother stole. And ever since then, this hatred has been embedded

Kevin Wilson (30:20.638)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (30:43.71)
among some of the descendants of Isa. Now you might say, what does that have to do with Islam? Well, in Genesis 28, nine, Isa married one of Ishmael's daughters. He had other wives, but he did have children with Ishmael's daughter. And so some of the descendants of Isa have been mingled with the descendants of Ishmael as well. So then when Islam came to the descendants of Isa, they said, this is our chance to live by the sword. And that spirit,

Kevin Wilson (30:56.406)
Mm. Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (31:11.448)
Mmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (31:12.118)
that ideology of terrorism that we see today found an expression through the sword of Islam, through this statement that was made about Isa, and ever since then, the sword has been in Islam, and that's why some Muslims desire to live by the sword. You see what I'm saying? So that's where this comes from. And you recall, Isa sold his birthright, remember, early on, for a bowl of soup, and today, suicide bombers are selling their natural birthright in the attempt to

Kevin Wilson (31:33.721)
Mm-hmm. Yes.

Dr. Faisal Malick (31:41.206)
you know, forward Islamic agendas in hopes that they're going to wake up in paradise with 72 virgins. And this type of teaching and ideology has been given to them, to young people that are disillusioned and are looking for vision, looking for hope, but unfortunately they've been given wrong vision. And I make this statement all the time, Kevin, that in the absence of God's vision, demonic vision will prevail. Back to your point of agendas.

Kevin Wilson (31:58.861)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (32:06.506)
Mmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (32:08.426)
So what's really happening is the spirit of terrorism or the spirit of Issa, I call it today, the spirit of Issa is trying to camouflage the destiny of the Muslim people, the populace that God is interested in and the plan that he has for them as to why he named Ishmael before he was born. And so there's that dynamic at play and we have to be careful if we're just naive and we're caught up in all the propaganda, as you're saying, and I'm not saying we ignore it.

We gotta deal with the problem. It's a problem. But we gotta also understand there's also God's vision in the process where he's saying, hey, I got a plan for the Muslim people. I love the Muslim people. I love the Jewish people. I love the church. I love all people. God is the God who is love. And so he has a plan for all people and all mankind comes from one man, from one Adam, from the blood of one man. And in like manner, all mankind can only be redeemed.

Kevin Wilson (32:38.477)
Sure.

Kevin Wilson (32:52.933)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (33:06.698)
by the blood of one man, Jesus Christ, the last Adam. And but not everybody's come to that revelation yet, you see, but God has a heart and a plan to help people come to that understanding, whether they're a Muslim or they're Jewish, they're atheists, whether they know God or not. His heart is for people around the world to know this, but not everybody actually does. But back to the Muslims, back to your political point of view, the conflict, if we're not careful, we'll get caught up in the noise and we'll ignore God's purpose for the Muslim people.

Kevin Wilson (33:09.979)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Dr. Faisal Malick (33:36.118)
and we'll be deaf to the cry of the Muslim heart that God is longing to answer right now. And really, we're going to be distracted by terrorism. There's a strategy that Satan has, a demonic strategy to terrorism to cause us to become afraid because fear always paralyzes, but love actually mobilizes. And this is what it's trying to do is paralyze the church. And if we agree with this narrative, if we agree with this fear,

Kevin Wilson (33:40.899)
Mm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (34:02.322)
If we preach the narrative of terrorism only and we try to continue to perpetuate fear, we're just helping the demonic agenda in the first place. So we gotta do something about it, but we need to be mobilized by love and the power of the gospel and the Holy Spirit and go into the world, including the Muslim world, and we need to see people come to know Jesus because that is what Jesus is doing today. He's reaching out to Muslims around the world, even as we speak.

Kevin Wilson (34:29.633)
Yeah, yeah, man. That's so good. So good. I you know, it's crazy how many Muslims are having these dreams. And it's like it literally, doctor, it's I mean, it's almost like every person that I find out that like came to Christ or something like this, like, well, Jesus came to me in a dream. And he told me that he was the way and he told, you know, it just we had a guy at our church just recently.

Dr. Faisal Malick (34:41.674)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (34:52.266)
No.

Kevin Wilson (34:57.781)
He was a Muslim and he told his story about turning to Christ. And, you know, and it was this, it was this wild thing that happened with him. And I was just like, Whoa, you know, you see that over and over and over again, and you see God reaching out to them, even in the midst of their, you know, maybe there wasn't ever a missionary or a pastor or something, but in their sleep, God is coming to them. I think that is just awesome.

Dr. Faisal Malick (35:20.778)
Yeah.

Dr. Faisal Malick (35:27.158)
And you know what's interesting about what you said, Kevin, that Muslims believe since the prophet of Islam passed away that the only way God can speak to them is through a dream or a vision. So they pay attention to their dreams, and not to mention God's already prophetically spoken that he's gonna pour his spirit out on all mankind and give them dreams and give them visions, right? So that is one of the conduits that God uses to reach the Muslim world, and 35% of every Muslim that comes to Christ today

Kevin Wilson (35:37.263)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (35:45.174)
Yes.

Yes.

Dr. Faisal Malick (35:57.326)
comes as a direct result of a dream or vision that they had from God. So God is using this to reach the Muslim world, no doubt, and we hear stories like this all the time of Muslims coming to Jesus by dreams and visions, and it's exciting. So Jesus, the head of the church himself, is reaching out to the Muslim world while we're sitting there criticizing them, ridiculing them, and pointing fingers at them, not knowing that Saul of Tarsus

Kevin Wilson (36:08.991)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (36:25.25)
was like, you know, kind of like a terrorist in the early church, or he was killing Christians, and he was arresting them, and for unjust reasons, and he thought he was serving God, just like Muslims believe they're serving God, you know, by doing what they do. In reality, Saul was doing the same thing, but he had a head-on collision with Jesus, and when he encountered Jesus, he says, Who art thou, Lord? And God arrested him, and really changed his whole life around, and began to use him for his purposes. And could it be?

Kevin Wilson (36:40.447)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (36:54.338)
that the soul of Tarsus of the latter part of our age in this era of the church is Ishmael, the Muslim people that God wants to use to bring them into the kingdom of God to come and taste of who Jesus really is so that Muslims who come to Jesus can then provoke the church to a passion for Jesus because what we've taken for granted in Christ, what we've forgotten about and would not realize how valuable Jesus really is, when we hear of Muslims,

Kevin Wilson (37:02.396)
Mmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (37:23.274)
coming to Jesus, it provokes us. Kevin, like you're saying, you're being provoked by this Muslim at your church. What is going on? Why is Jesus appearing to him? They're supposed to be bad people, so to speak, according to the narrative, but Jesus is reaching out to them because he loves all people, and he's reaching out to the Muslim people. He's reaching out to Ishmael because just like 4,000 years ago, Ishmael was in a wilderness. He had no water. He had no bread. He was dying. In like manner, 4,000 years later today.

Muslims are in a spiritual wilderness where they're spiritually thirsty, they're spiritually hungry, they're seeking for answers. And what God wants to do is answer the cry of the Muslim heart, open their eyes and show them the well of living water, which is Jesus, and cause them to drink of that living water and let them have a revelation of the Father who they're longing to know. So once they know the Father, their eyes can be opened so they can come into the kingdom of God and they will feast on the living bread who is Jesus. They will drink of the living water.

Kevin Wilson (37:58.937)
Hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (38:22.978)
They will feast on the Holy Spirit because they're so thirsty and so hungry. And that hunger and that passion to embrace Jesus is gonna provoke the church as we know it to really pursue Jesus and say, I want the same experience with Christ. I wanna know Jesus like that. I wanna be able to follow him. Why are they experiencing Jesus when I would like to have an experience and get to know Jesus in a deep and intimate way? So God is no doubt using Ishmael. That's one of the reasons why God named Ishmael before he was born.

because one day God would knew there'd be 2 billion Muslims around the world that need to hear about Jesus, but they would also be used by God strategically to provoke his church to a passion, once again, towards our first love, which should be Jesus. And I'm telling you, if that begins to happen to us, Kevin, things are gonna change for us, and our churches were a change, Christians would look different, and what we do would start to change because Jesus would not just be a small part of our life, he would become our life. That's what really would begin to happen, you know?

Kevin Wilson (39:19.829)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, that's great. No, I'm just I'm loving every moment of it. And, you know, listeners, I know you guys are listening right now and you're probably like, man, that's wow. This guy's really passionate about God, you know, and how did he get for he go from, you know, a Muslim who didn't know Christ? And that's what we're talking about today really is, you know, his story. But we're also talking about

Dr. Faisal Malick (39:22.338)
So I know I'm getting a little excited here about this topic, am I not?

Kevin Wilson (39:49.473)
You know, you know, God is just really, truly just speaking through him right now is what's happening. Um, and you know, because this is going to be heard by Muslims, this is going to be heard by people who, who have family members that are Muslims, right. And, and, and God, you know, I, before I, we came on the air, my, my prayer to God is God, you speak through us. I don't, it doesn't matter what I have written down. It doesn't matter. It all that matters is that God speaks. And so.

I'm gobbling it all up. Trust me. So so let's go back just to your story. You're you're 16, 17 years old. You move back to America. So what happens in your life? I mean, what happens? You move back at 17. What's going on in your life at that particular point? And then when does.

Dr. Faisal Malick (40:21.229)
Ha!

Kevin Wilson (40:45.261)
When does things start changing for you? Like what happens?

Dr. Faisal Malick (40:49.482)
Well, for me, I'm in school supporting myself full time and also working and I'm in the United States of America and I feel I should have got moved to Canada. So I kind of take a road trip and I drive up into Canada, come into Toronto area, start living there now. And because I had Canadian citizenship as a child from when I was a baby, so I thought it was more, affect more, you know, better for me to go live in Canada. My status in America after six months really would technically not be good. And so I needed to go back to Canada.

Kevin Wilson (41:17.408)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (41:19.206)
And so I thought I'd get settled there. And I got involved in business really. I felt I wanted to do something as an entrepreneur, started doing business a little bit. And some of the business people I was talking to or associates of mine were Christians. And so that opened up some debate now. So they brought up something about the Bible or something. And then I would tell them the Bible has been changed and it's inaccurate and you guys are deceived. I was a little intense, you know what I mean, Kevin? They were more polite and kinder than I was.

Kevin Wilson (41:46.425)
Mm-mm. Right. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (41:48.726)
But I was like, hey, you guys are just wrong here. And I would say, well, Mohammed is the final messenger of Allah and the Quran is what you should be believing. And they'd be like, hold on here, you know, and for a moment and we had these types of intensive moments of conversation really. But one of those guys said to me, listen, why don't you come to my church? And I said, hey, listen, are you crazy? I'm a Muslim, I'm not gonna come to your church. He goes, oh, okay. He goes, well, why don't you come down to this business convention back in the States?

There's gonna be 20,000 people there, and you're gonna hear from successful business people about how to be successful in life. And he made this statement. He said, if you wanna be successful, learn from people who already are. And I said, yeah, that kinda makes sense, doesn't it? So I went to this business convention, and on the Saturday night, they told me, listen, we're gonna stop the business convention, just for, gonna pause it, just for Sunday morning, and we're gonna have this thing called a non-denominational Christian service.

Kevin Wilson (42:31.522)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (42:47.818)
And I didn't really know what that was. And they said, listen, what we're gonna do is, if you come to this thing, we'll give you a front row seat. And as soon as this Christian thing is done in about a couple hours, you can keep your seat for the remainder of the business event. So I'm thinking, this is great. I'm gonna be in the front row, and I just gotta, you know, go through this two hour thing, whatever this is. And in my mind, it wasn't a church, because I thought a church was this building or something. We're in this Coliseum.

Kevin Wilson (42:50.005)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (43:15.755)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (43:17.314)
And I'm thinking it's not a priest that's gonna be speaking. And I didn't even think I even heard the word pastor, but there's no pastor, no spiritual guy that's of any official order that's gonna be speaking. But they said this business guy is gonna be speaking. And it was one of the key hosts of this big convention, and he's the main speaker, which I said, okay, great, how bad could this really be, right? I mean, just a business guy. And so I walk in that Sunday morning to get my front row seat.

Kevin Wilson (43:26.422)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (43:41.762)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (43:46.418)
and they had removed the first 30 to 40 rows from the night before. So I walk up to somebody and said, hey, why don't you put out more rows? And they said, well, we can't do that, sir. I said, why not? They said, well, something's gonna happen here. I said, what's gonna happen in all this empty space? And they said, oh, sir, just sit down and you're soon gonna find out. So anyway, this business guy gets up and the first thing out of his mouth, he says, Jesus is the son of God.

Kevin Wilson (44:02.541)
Mm-hmm.

Hehehe. Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (44:14.882)
And boy, when he said that, I was like, whoa, I can't believe he said that. And then he said, there's no name given amongst mankind by which you can be saved except the name of Jesus. I didn't like that either. And he said, if you'd reject Jesus and deny Jesus, you will burn in hell forever. I didn't like that at all. He says, but if you receive Jesus, you'll be able to go to heaven. And he was very confident about this. And I was like, how could he be so sure? And then he held up his Bible in his right hand.

And he said, there's two books that claim to be the written word of God. He goes, the Bible is and the other one is not. So now I thought he's talking about the Quran. So I got really angry with him. And I thought I need to go talk to this man because he is completely deceived. And I'm going to confront him. So I ran to the front because he began to give an invitation for people to respond to his sermon, I guess, to come to the front. And I thought this is a great opportunity. I'm going to go confront him and talk to him.

Kevin Wilson (44:53.675)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (45:12.214)
So I got up and I started running to the front area, but by the time I got to the stage, approximately 2,000 to 3,000 people started getting up and running to the front as well. So when they first started running, I thought they were coming to ambush me. So I don't know what to do. Yeah, and I got stuck. I'm stuck in this, what you would call an alter area, right? So I'm stuck to the stage. I want to leave. I don't know what to do. I don't know what's happening. And I remember this businessman had tears coming out of his eyes. He's looking at all of us.

Kevin Wilson (45:26.478)
Oh. Right.

Kevin Wilson (45:32.863)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (45:41.802)
and he starts to tell us to pray this prayer after him. And it's a prayer of salvation, you know, you would call it. I didn't know what it was then, but he said, Jesus is the son of God. That's how he started his prayer. And I said, no way, I ain't saying that prayer. So I said my Muslim statement of faith, which is what Muslims pray, the kalma we call it. And by the time he got done with whatever he was doing, I started to go back to my seat and this beautiful Christian couple came up to me, business associates came to me, gave me a hug. And they said, congratulations.

Kevin Wilson (45:55.733)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (46:11.818)
I said, what for? And they said, well, you went to the front and you became a Christian. And I said, are you insane? Are you crazy? Don't you ever call me a Christian. I'm a Muslim. And I said, the earth can shake, the mountains can move, but there's nothing on this earth that can make me confess that Jesus is the son of God. So that's kind of how I left it. And they were like a little shocked, you know, and amazed at what I said.

I remember making that statement because God is listening to things we say. I'm making this statement without knowing what's going to happen in my future, but I go back and come back to Canada over a course of a year. I go back to another convention, and then I go back to a final convention. Once again, they give me a front row seat. I'm sitting in the front row. I know I don't need to respond to this ultra call thing. By now, I've made a decision that I want to win Christians to Islam.

Kevin Wilson (46:42.281)
Sure, absolutely.

Dr. Faisal Malick (47:07.19)
because they're deceived, and if they can win people to Jesus through these conventions in business, through their platform, well, why can't I do the same? I can do the same as a business person. I can bring these business people together, share the Quran with them, share Islam with them, and hopefully bring them out of their deception into an understanding of Islam. So if they can do it, I can do it, but I gotta learn how they're getting such good results as I learned in business already, right? And so again,

Kevin Wilson (47:16.473)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (47:25.977)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (47:31.801)
Mm-hmm. You're right.

Dr. Faisal Malick (47:35.166)
I'm at this convention on a Sunday morning for this little pause. They give me a front row seat and the same businessman gets up and begins to preach about Jesus being the way, the truth, and the life that no one comes to the Father except through him. And he says, if you believe upon Jesus, he'll give you the right and privilege to become sons of God even if you believe upon his name. And then he asked everyone out of courtesy, would you all stand in the building? So 20,000 people, we all kind of stood up.

And he began his invitation, which I knew at this point I did not need to respond to, so to speak. And as he began his invitation, suddenly the living God showed up. And I remember as I was standing there, I felt ambushed by God and his presence. His presence went right through me, went right around me. I felt alone with God. I didn't understand what God was doing here amongst such people that were blaspheming him by worshiping Jesus. I couldn't process that in my Muslim mind.

Kevin Wilson (48:11.031)
Mm-hmm

Dr. Faisal Malick (48:34.838)
But while I'm standing there and I'm standing before God, I have all these questions going through my heart. And while I'm in his presence, my questions are being answered. They're dissipating. My entire existence as a person was as if it is nothing in comparison to the almighty majesty of God. And I had this one burning question in my heart. And I said, God, what are you doing here? I thought these, meaning the Christians, are the bad guys. And he said, no.

Kevin Wilson (48:52.718)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (49:02.809)
Hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (49:04.578)
These are my children. And he said it again, no, these are my children. And he said it a third time. And when he said it the third time, everything I'd ever known growing up as a Muslim, my time reading the Quran, my time praying, practicing the Muslim, all that I believed, all that I'd known was as if it was nothing. And I came to this one revelation, this one reality that Jesus is the son of God. It's as if I knew nothing else but this one truth.

that Jesus is the Son of God. That's what happened to me that moment. And it's like my entire existence was nothing in comparison to this reality. I believed it with every fiber of my being. I didn't just believe it, I actually knew it. Like it was the only truth and only reality I could ever know. And I remember I need to walk forward that morning and I said, I'm gonna walk forward today. And I said, Jesus, I believe you are the Son of God. You were born of a virgin. You died on the cross indeed. You shed your blood for me.

Kevin Wilson (49:41.049)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (49:48.451)
Mmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (50:01.266)
and you rose again from the dead the third day, would you come into my heart, take away this cold heart, stony heart, give me a brand new heart that I can love my Father, our Heavenly Father, just like you love him. And that was a Sunday, it was 12.45, it was July the 3rd, I can't forget that time. That's when I became a believer and a follower of Jesus, and I renounced Islam, and I became a follower of Jesus, and I came to a revelation of who God is.

and who Jesus is and how he indeed is the Son of God. And that was the beginning for me, Kevin. That was gonna change the trajectory of my life.

Kevin Wilson (50:38.985)
Wow.

That is that is that is something else. So so after this happens, because I'm curious, because, you know, sometimes, you know, and sometimes we can be in the presence of God. Now, obviously, for you, this was probably really something because you've never assuming never felt anything like this before. So it wasn't like, oh, you know.

Dr. Faisal Malick (50:45.642)
You took me back, man. You took me way back today.

Dr. Faisal Malick (51:03.646)
Yeah, no, never, never.

Kevin Wilson (51:09.377)
But as Christians, sometimes we can be in the presence of God and we can be in a powerful service. And then you go to work the next day, and you're like, God, I really want to be in that again. Because you're just like, you have to kind of go, did you ever have a time where you just kind of went back, not back to your Muslim faith, but just like you just kind of became normal again, where it was like all of the

Dr. Faisal Malick (51:21.235)
Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Wilson (51:37.517)
the fancy feelings and all that stuff just went away. You were just kind of like, okay, did I just like, did that really happen? Or was I just like feeling something weird? Like what did that look like afterwards?

Dr. Faisal Malick (51:49.862)
Yeah, well, there's two parts to that. First of all, the amazing thing to me till today is, how did I know that I was standing before God? That's an incredible thing. Like, how do I know that? But the reality is when you encounter God who created us, the God of all creation, you're not going to question who you're standing before. Like, every fiber of my being knew that He is God. That's incredible. The revelation of who Jesus is as the Son of God never dissipated.

Kevin Wilson (52:00.133)
Mm-hmm. That's, yes.

Kevin Wilson (52:11.685)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (52:19.57)
has never dissipated in my life. I never questioned that. However, I had circumstances in my life that followed. I ended up, I was student of property for my family. I had some tenants. My family found out I was hanging around Christian people. They gave power of attorney for that property to friends. They sold it out from underneath me. I came home, the locks had been changed, and it was winter, and now I was living in my car. And so I'm living in a car. And so I think-

Kevin Wilson (52:43.519)
Mmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (52:46.354)
I didn't have a chance to doubt what I believed because I started going through some challenges right after I believed. You know what I mean? I'm living in a car. I got Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs that are friends of mine at the time making fun of me and they're saying, hey, listen, you know, the God of Islam is judging you because you've turned your back on him. And I remember saying to them, I said, look, whether I live in a car or I live in a mansion, all I know is one thing. Jesus is the son of God. That's the only thing I knew. Because that's the only revelation I had.

Kevin Wilson (52:51.505)
Mm-hmm

Kevin Wilson (53:04.815)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (53:13.952)
Mm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (53:16.526)
not knowing that the scripture says, he who overcomes the world is a person that confesses and believes that Jesus is the son of God. I didn't know how powerful this revelation was to go through life circumstances, right? But I was through difficult circumstances. So that was going on with me. And then I finally got out of that situation, living out of a car. I found a little place, what I call like a basement of a basement, which is better than living in a car. And it was like there was a furnace there. It was not a...

Kevin Wilson (53:16.65)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (53:24.503)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (53:45.958)
legal dwelling place, you know, but that's better than living in a car, right? And so I was living there for a little while. And, you know, I had another encounter at that time with the Holy Spirit of my life at that time, where basically in a nutshell, the Spirit of God came into that little place. And I sensed what I would refer to like a river and waves of an ocean, but like a river going through my being for three hours. And I remember it was a Friday morning, it was February 24th.

Kevin Wilson (53:47.721)
Yeah. Sure.

Dr. Faisal Malick (54:14.974)
And it was 730 in the morning for about three hours at 1030. This river wouldn't stop. And I heard my heavenly father speak to me and say, I love you, son. I love you, son. And those words meant so much to me. It was like every time he said, I love you, son. And I could sense the river of God flowing through me, the Holy Spirit, really. And as the river of God was flowing through me, three distinct things occurred to that morning. Number one, I had more love for God than I ever had before.

Number two, I suddenly leveled up in my love for people at that point. And number three, I had a hunger and love for his word. And for 36 hours, Kevin, I could not put the Bible down. I couldn't eat anything. All I could do is feed on the word of God. And 36 hours, I supernaturally, by the help of the Holy Spirit, I read the entire Bible from Genesis to Revelation. And I would look at it and a paragraph at a time would just open up, go into my spirit and explode with illumination, a light and understanding.

Kevin Wilson (55:05.341)
Oh my goodness.

Dr. Faisal Malick (55:13.142)
The Holy Spirit became my teacher. He began to write his word upon my heart, and I didn't even know what was going on. So everything I'm experiencing, I'm thinking this is what every Christian is. This is how you become a Christian. You encounter God, and then this happens to you. And I never told anybody about it because I thought all Christians already have this happen to them. And so the fruit of that was, after getting the word for 36 hours and the Holy Spirit doing this in my life, what happened now is people around me...

Kevin Wilson (55:23.87)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (55:31.009)
Mmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (55:40.67)
started to ask me questions about God in business meetings. So I'm supposed to be having a business meeting and suddenly the presence of God interrupts the business meeting and the person I'm talking to, the client or the associate starts to get teary-eyed and they start to ask me questions about God. And behold, before you know it, I'm trying to answer their questions, which I didn't even know where I was getting these answers from, but obviously the Holy Spirit was helping me and then they would say, how do I know this Jesus that you know? Then I would pray with them.

Kevin Wilson (56:08.878)
Mm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (56:10.21)
and help them receive Jesus, just introduce them to Jesus really in prayer. Sometimes I take them to my car, which we call the save mobile, and I take them to the save mobile and get them born again and saved right then and there. And I thought, again, this is normal Christianity and this is what every Christian does. I thought this is how it works. And so 1,500 people within the first three years of my coming to a realization of who Jesus is,

Kevin Wilson (56:20.365)
Hehehe

Kevin Wilson (56:29.509)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (56:39.214)
1500 people approximately gave their lives to Jesus. Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, atheists, even some Christians got born again for real and gave their lives to Christ and came out of religion, so to speak. And I saw this happen in my life in those early days because of what the Holy Spirit and what Jesus did in my life. And I'm telling you, if we rely on him and we become passionate about him, he'll get involved in every area of our life and everything I do today.

Kevin Wilson (56:52.543)
Mmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (57:07.534)
comes from one of those 1,500 plus people that had the privilege and honor of leading to Christ. Someone became a pastor and said, would you come speak at my church? Someone is a CEO of a company and said, would you come speak to my staff? Someone was a principal of a school and said, would you come speak over here? So everything I do today in my life can be traced back to one of those 1,500 plus people that I had the privilege of leading to the Lord, that God used them, you know, the ministry of reconciliation as a doorway to open up.

other doors in my life to accomplish his purposes in my life, whether it's ministry or business or the leadership network or the podcast that we're doing, whatever we're doing around the world is happening because of those early years. I say to people, pay attention to what God is doing through you with people around you. You talked about there's Muslims in your neighborhood. There's people around us everywhere. God wants to reach people. Remember, the Holy Spirit loves people more than we do. All I do is say, God, you love people more than I do. You love them unconditionally.

Don't judge them, just love them regardless if they come to know Jesus or not. And if you love people that way, the Holy Spirit will engage their hearts and you'll see them come to a revelation of who Jesus is. God will visit them. And I could tell you story after story after story of people coming to Jesus in the simple way by the Holy Spirit interrupting our conversations, our meetings, even till today I see God doing that. And everybody can do this because

We all have the Spirit of God if we know Jesus, and He is willing to reach out to people, and He loves people more than we ever could. And if we just start to love people, we start flowing in the presence and in the river of God, and that love opens the door for heaven to touch people's hearts around us. And I tell you, no one is any match for the Spirit of God. He loves them so much, and nobody can stand up to Him. He's awesome, and He's incredible, and He reveals Jesus like nobody can.

Kevin Wilson (58:56.45)
Yeah.

Kevin Wilson (58:59.901)
Yeah, yeah. Oh, my goodness. That is that's incredible. It's just it's just so. I know, man, it's just like I'm. Yeah, I'm just as you're talking, I'm just mesmerized and almost in tears by what God is has done, right? Like it's the God I serve. It's it's he it's the same one like he did that for you.

Dr. Faisal Malick (59:07.587)
We're having so much fun.

Dr. Faisal Malick (59:23.562)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kevin Wilson (59:29.857)
You know what I mean? And he's continuing to do that. Wow. I so. So what was it like? So because obviously, you know, you had a lot of zeal for God. Like this stuff had happened and you're just what was it like? Like finding a church like did you did you automatically like go to like a church that you knew or like what did that look like finding a church?

Dr. Faisal Malick (59:57.046)
That's kind of a funny story. I was standing in a parking lot of a restaurant I used to like to eat at. It was called Mr. Greeks down there in Toronto area. And in the parking lot, a couple of guys were talking about their church and something going on at their church. And so I walked up to them. I said, excuse me, can I come to your church? And they looked at me a little puzzled and they said, sure, you can come to the church. And so that's how I heard about a church. I went to this church.

And there was about maybe 2000 people at this church, and I went in and I remember they had these hymnals. I don't know if you're familiar with these hymnals back in the day. And so they gave me one and they were singing. So I never knew how to read a hymnal. You know how you read the first line, then the fourth line, the eighth line, the 12th line. And you know what I'm saying? It's not like a book. And so they start singing the first line and then they, I'm trying to follow the second one, they're singing something else.

Kevin Wilson (01:00:35.218)
Oh yeah.

Kevin Wilson (01:00:41.945)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:00:46.809)
Oh yeah? Right, right.

Kevin Wilson (01:00:56.025)
Hehehe

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:00:56.134)
And so I'm like amazed. I'm like these Christians, they don't even, they just, they probably memorize their Bible, but they've also memorized this other book too. And I don't know what was going on. And I'm like, wow, man, these are some dedicated people, you know? And I remember being at that service and there was gonna be a baptism service I think later that night. And I remember the Spirit of God came and said to me, you need to get baptized. And I said, sure, whatever it is, we're doing it.

Kevin Wilson (01:01:04.488)
Ha ha!

Kevin Wilson (01:01:10.795)
Right.

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:01:25.698)
and we're gonna get baptized. And I remember walking up to the pastor afterwards and I said, you know, I need to get baptized. He goes, well, you can book an appointment, you know, come talk to somebody at the office. And the next time we do a baptism service, I said, no, you don't understand. I need to get baptized tonight. Either you baptize me or I'm gonna go door to door in this neighborhood and find somebody to baptize me. And he says, he goes, hold on young man, let's talk to you for a moment, what's going on? So I told him and he says, yeah, you need to get baptized. And that's how I got water baptized by the way.

Kevin Wilson (01:01:25.877)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:01:42.989)
Mm-hmm

Kevin Wilson (01:01:52.414)
Wow.

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:01:52.462)
by going to the church the first time in my life and that night I got baptized. So that's how I got introduced to church and so thankful to God. You know, what's important is this, you know, God loves people so much. And no matter in your audience, I'm sure in your audience, there's many people here today that are hearing this. And I really believe God is touching people's hearts and He's awakening in their hearts a hunger for Him. He's awakening in their hearts a thirst for Him.

Kevin Wilson (01:02:05.081)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:02:19.838)
So, you know, blessed is the man or woman whom God causes to be drawn to himself. It's a blessing, this hunger that is perpetuating in our hearts. He's awakening us to who he really is. And life can get so busy, you know, we can get caught up in the day to day and the mundane, and we forget about the more important things like time with God. We spend more time on our phones and our smartphones and our devices. You know, first thing in the morning, we gotta kind of put those things aside and we gotta get up and say,

Kevin Wilson (01:02:25.174)
Yes.

Yes.

Kevin Wilson (01:02:47.907)
Hmm

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:02:49.482)
What's God doing today? What's on his calendar for me today? How can I order my day? And you start to spend some time with him and you start to say, hey God, I wanna get to know you today. You start to read the word a little bit today. You start to pray things that are stirring in your heart from God's word. And you say, Holy Spirit, would you be my teacher today? Would you order my steps today? Would you give me divine appointments? Would you order my calendar today so I don't waste time? And you start to bring God into your day.

Kevin Wilson (01:02:51.245)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Kevin Wilson (01:03:18.019)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:03:18.146)
And you start to say, God, I want you to get involved in my life, have the right people cross my path. And I really sense in your audience that God is awakening a hunger and a thirst in them because he wants to meet them right where they are. He wants to help them see him as he really is. He wants to feed him the living bread that he actually is, you know? He wants them to drink of the river of life. And he wants us to really level up in our relationship with him, level up in our ability to

Kevin Wilson (01:03:37.269)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:03:46.514)
Understand what he's leading us to do, who he's calling us to meet. And there's great potential in this generation. Great potential. And really the presence of God wants to minister to people in your audience and touch their hearts right where they are. He's not forgotten about you. He knows your address. He knows your situation. He knows your pain. He's seen the tears that have come out of your eyes. He's caught them, so to speak, with his hands. And he wants to minister to you. You're not alone. He's never going to leave you.

Kevin Wilson (01:03:53.079)
Yes.

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:04:14.122)
He's never gonna forsake you. He's gonna be with you until the end. And he wants you to know his heart, know his voice, and know that he cares for you and he loves you and he wants to walk with you. And he wants to open your eyes so you can see like you've never seen and open your ears so you can hear like you've never heard. So there's something happening even in your audience, Kevin, I sense, where God is reaching out to people. And one thing, if I can say this, and I know you've let me share a lot and I so appreciate that.

Kevin Wilson (01:04:35.277)
Yeah.

Kevin Wilson (01:04:38.869)
Yes, please. Yeah.

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:04:42.686)
in our conversation, but I remember years ago, I was walking by my fish tank and God spoke to me and he said, son, a whole generation of Muslims are gonna come in the kingdom of God. And I said, God, how is this going to happen? And the first thing he said, he said, son, I'm gonna do it through dreams and visions. I'm gonna give dreams and visions of Jesus to the Muslim people and they'll see a man clothed in white and he will say to them, I am the way, the truth and the life.

and they're gonna seek answers and interpretations to these dreams, and they're gonna come looking for my people, and when they do, my people have to help them see and understand who I really am. And that's exactly what's happening. Jesus is reaching out to Muslims all over the world today, and he's causing them to come to a revelation of who he really is, and that's whom we really serve. And we're living in a time that God's reaching out to people, but it starts with us being awakened to the potential.

Kevin Wilson (01:05:25.453)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:05:35.127)
Yes.

Yes.

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:05:42.558)
of God's Spirit. God lives on the inside of us if we know Jesus. We're the temple of the Holy Spirit. Isaiah the prophet says there's no other place of rest for God's Spirit except a humble and contrite heart that trembles at his word. When we get a reverence for God, I pray God touches people, Kevin, awakens within us that hunger, and then he begins to feed us and he equips us and he causes us to be open to those people that are

Kevin Wilson (01:05:46.677)
Yes.

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:06:11.438)
crossing our paths and allow God's presence to just touch them, tenderize the soil of their hearts so they can come to a revelation of who Jesus is as well. And I'm telling you, life gets exciting. When you lead somebody to Jesus, Kevin, it's the most exciting experience we can have, right? It is amazing. I get more excited than people do because I'm like, wow, God, you did this because it's really God who does it. And so we just got to be a conduit really and say, God, here I am. Use me.

Kevin Wilson (01:06:17.858)
Yeah.

Kevin Wilson (01:06:23.029)
Yeah. Yes.

No. Yes.

Right. Yes.

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:06:40.87)
and you'll be surprised how God will cause you to be a vessel. And you don't have to be perfect, but you can be yielded. You can be humble, and you can say, God, hey, here I am. What do you want to do for me today? Who do you want me to talk to today? How do you want to do what you want to do in my life? Who can I pray for today? And humility, you just kind of start that way, and you'll start to see God touching people's lives around you. And I'm talking to your audience, of course, because I really sense there's something stirring in them today as we're talking.

Kevin Wilson (01:06:47.138)
Yes. Yeah.

Kevin Wilson (01:07:06.625)
Yeah!

Yes. No, I love that. For the Muslim that may be listening, who may just, I don't know. I mean, they could be a skeptic. They could be a person who is seeking like they're like something's off, something something's off, not sure what it is. Or the person who's even afraid to even to even think.

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:07:18.894)
Mm-hmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:07:38.761)
about looking outside of Islam for truth because of their family, or they may be married to someone, or they're like, if I do this, like everybody's going to deserve me. Can you talk to the Muslim that is listening and help them? Like what, what if they're seeking or maybe they're not, what would you say to them if they were listening?

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:07:45.998)
Hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:08:04.662)
Well, I would say to a Muslim, first of all, I understand what you're hearing today is very difficult for you. Maybe you're angry with me for sharing these things and I really understand where you're coming from because I was there once, right? And I told you what I believed and you can understand that. So it would be very hard for me to hear what I'm saying today. And so I can understand if you're feeling that way. But I also admire your courage and your heart.

And I believe there's a hunger in your heart that God has placed there to wanna know him because I know Muslims are hungry. You want knowledge and you wanna seek after knowledge. But the Quran says to consult these books, to consult in other words, the Bible that we believe in today, the three books that form part of the Bible, most of the Bible really. And so if you really think about it, you probably had a dream or two from God in some way where God is trying to encourage you to come to a realization of what genuine love really is.

Because God is love. And when you experience Jesus, you experience love, and you experience the reality of who love is. See, Jesus is the word of God. And he is the word of God that came. He was born of a virgin. You would know that as a Muslim already. But he's the word of God that then took on flesh, became human, and walked among us. So Jesus is not only the son of God, but he is, Isaiah, this great prophet said,

Unto us a son is given and unto us a child is born. So the child was born, but the son wasn't born because the son always preexisted. So Jesus who is the word is also the son who became a child in the womb of Mary as you would believe. And then he was born, he walked among us and he was crucified and he died and shed his blood for us. And I know as a Muslim you don't believe that, but in reality we have historical evidence for that to be true.

And so Jesus died on the cross, he shed his blood. And in doing so, he became our sin. And in doing so, he made it possible that if we believe in him, that he died and he rose again from the dead and he became our sin, that if we actually believe in him, we also will be cleansed and forgiven from all our sin. We will be made right with God and we'd be given access to a relationship with our heavenly father. And God wants you to have that relationship with him and his Holy Spirit will be drawing you.

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:10:30.41)
So is it easy after you do that? Not necessarily. Especially amongst family, it can be tough. But don't worry, Jesus will be with you the whole way. And Jesus said it this way, listen, if you confess me, I've not come to bring peace between you and your family. I've come to bring a sword. I've come to bring division. There will be conflict in your home, but take peace, I'm gonna be with you. So sometimes conflict occurs, sometime it doesn't. But it's worth knowing who God really is, who Jesus really is.

Kevin Wilson (01:10:52.097)
Mm-hmm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:11:00.346)
worth knowing your eternity shall be secure in him, that heaven shall be assured for you, and that you can walk with God, get to know him. That's a beautiful experience when you come to that realization. And all you gotta do, so if you're sitting out there as a Muslim, you're like, hey, I don't know if I can believe this. I get it. Just ask him. Say, Jesus, are you really the son of God? Who are you really? If you are the son of God, I need to know. Would you reveal that to me? Would you reveal to me?

Kevin Wilson (01:11:17.991)
Mmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:11:28.438)
Mm.

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:11:29.634)
Say, God, if Jesus is the son of God, reveal it to me. Show me. I need to know. Answer my questions. I would start there and then see what happens over the next period of your life and see how God basically interrupts your life, starts to give you answers, brings people across your path. Go to fassomalek.com maybe. There's probably a resource or two there that might be able to help you. Download this book that God confronted me. It's free of charge and maybe give it a read.

and see if something sticks out to you and touches you in some way. So that's what I would say to you. And I would say, I love you, I respect you, and I honor you. Even if you don't know Jesus, I still consider you my brother or sister, and I honor you, and I know God loves you incredibly. And he has a plan for your life. I know that he has a plan for the Muslim people, and it's highlighted in the Bible, and you are part of that plan. And I hope to see that plan come to pass in your life.

Kevin Wilson (01:11:59.661)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:12:16.771)
Yeah.

Kevin Wilson (01:12:23.961)
Hmm.

Kevin Wilson (01:12:28.821)
Yeah, man, that's so good. So good. I, you know, and I want to second that if you're a Muslim that's listening and, um, you know, I, I can't claim to have the background that, uh, that Dr. Fassel has, I can't claim to have that. But what I do have is a, a testimony of God's grace in my own life. And I just want to say to any Muslim that's listening,

Uh, if there's one person on the, in the universe who loves you, uh, that's just a regular old American, uh, I do, I love you and I will do anything that I can to help you understand and know this Jesus that I came to know and the Jesus that changed my life and you know, if you want to reach out to us, uh, we, we have a show lines two, four, eight, three, zero one, 2010.

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:13:03.97)
Now, well.

Kevin Wilson (01:13:22.873)
If you have any further questions, you can reach out to that line. Also, you can go to, uh, Dr. Uh, facile's page. Uh, it's a covenant of life.org. And then of course, uh, Dr. Uh, facile Malik.com. Um, and you know, I just, I want to make sure you get his, the spelling of his name. It's F A I S. A L. Uh,

M-A-L-I-C-K. So I just want to make sure you have that right spelling. When you look at him, all of his links and everything will be in the show notes. So if you're listening to this, uh, look in the show notes, all the links to, uh, get in touch with him will be there. And, uh, you know, it's, I could, doctor, I could talk to you all day. I literally could. Like I've just like.

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:14:17.3)
And I'm having fun with you too. It's so easy to do this with you. You do such a great job.

Kevin Wilson (01:14:21.333)
You know, thanks. I appreciate that. But yeah, I mean, it's just the it's the presence of God. It's it's what you've allowed God to do in your life. And it just it's so evident. Right. And it's that's but that's who God is. Right. When Paul, when Paul was changed from Saul to Paul, people, everybody knew it. Right. Because things were happening around him. Right. It just it couldn't help but not. So then that's what I'm seeing in your life. And

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:14:40.011)
Ha ha.

Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Kevin Wilson (01:14:50.337)
You know, uh, so yeah, so listen folks, um, you know what? Go to a doctor's website, uh, go to, um, you know, look in our show notes and don't forget, uh, to, uh, like subscribe wherever you listen to this podcast, share this podcast. If you are a Christian, uh, listening to us and you have a family member, uh, or a neighbor or anything, don't be afraid. Don't.

Feel like hey if I do this, I'm going to make them mad listen, you know what at the end of the day It's not about us. It's about christ so uh The initially somebody might like I don't really like that, but you know what you're planting a seed Uh in this person's heart and so uh share these podcasts Uh, you know this one especially and uh, we love you guys. God bless you. We will see you next time

On the thinking out loud podcast. Thanks doctor for being with us today All right

Dr. Faisal Malick (01:15:51.211)
My pleasure.